Jon Hyman Joins Us To Review His Worst Employers of 2022

We're very pleased to welcome back Jon Hyman as a return guest to discuss his Worst Employers of 2022.
Vote Now: https://www.ohioemployerlawblog.com/2022/12/vote-for-worst-employer-of-2022.html

• Is the Chesapeake Walmart where the shooting happened a Worst Employer?
• Your Nominees are:
  • The Active Shooter
  • The Cancerous Employment Canceler
  • The Hurricane Haranguer
  • The Murder Enabler
  • The Shitty Supervisor
  • The Slaughtering Supervisor
  • The Slumlord Supervisor
• A not so honorable mention: Vince McMahon 

Please go vote now for your favorites. Winner/Loser will be announced December 21st.

Find Jon Hyman:

• https://www.ohioemployerlawblog.com/
• LinkedIn
• Twitter
• The Norah and Dad Show

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Transcript

Warren 0:02

Welcome to Jaded HR, the podcast with three HR professionals who want to help you get through the workday by saying all the things that you're thinking, but say them out loud. I'm Warren. I'm Patrick. And I'm John.

Jon 0:15

It's good to be here.

Warren 0:16

All right. Great to have you back. The topic I want to cover today is your worst employers of 2022 list. And you've got it down to seven for us, but I we were just talking offline, and I do want to go down the route as a major not a majority of our list, a significant portion of our listeners are from the Hampton Roads area and have had some impact of the Walmart shooting at Thanksgiving time frame. And it's literally the second closest Walmart to both Patrick and I are around here. And we've both been in there many, many, many a times. But you don't think you've been in there many a times?

Patrick 0:54

I would never go to Walmart many a times. No offense to all the all you Walmart goers out there, but we never used that word.

Jon 1:00

I was saying offline, I I think you're either a target person or a Walmart person. And I'm definitely a Target person. So if I'm in a Walmart, something's gone horribly wrong in my day.

Warren 1:10

So well, I I'm a Target person. My wife actually worked there for 15 years at Target for a long, long time. But Walmart is a necessary evil because A, it's convenience, and B, they have stuff that you need for automotive and some their pet sections bigger than than Target's. And you know, you just in their hours, you end up being at Walmart at one in the morning, maybe not lately since COVID.

Jon 1:35

But that's a good save because your listenership in Bentonville, Arkansas was going down the crapper.

Warren 1:40

So they could go. I I really do. I I despise Walmart. I despise their customer service. I despise everything that they do. I I think Sam Walton's rolling over in his grave with their own. But thank you for your sponsor today, Walmart. We appreciate your I think the checks in the mail. But no, there's been so many new things coming out about that that incident, the shooting there in Chesapeake. And that they have some HR implications because there's a lot of indicators out there that maybe Walmart should have known a little bit more about what was going on. There was an employee complaint, multiple apparently, and even an employee's mother complained to the store about about this particular manager who did the shooting. And at least at this point, it doesn't appear that Walmart took any action on that. And would that make them one of your worst employers? Would I know you just threw someone in there last week as a too late but needs to be mentioned anyway, type of notice last week. But is Walmart going to are they going to be in that category?

Jon 2:44

I mean, it certainly and it certainly seems like a worthy nominee. I mean, if you're getting red flags thrown up left and right, that maybe one of your employees is a problem, is a risk of violence in the workplace and you do nothing about it, that's would certainly, I think, earn you a spot on the list. I mean, it's the one thing you can't do in a situation like this is nothing. And that's what it appears Walmart did. And now we're all left Monday mor, you know, Monday morning quarterbacking the situation to say, you know, had they done an investigation, had they talked to the employee, had they removed the employee from the workplace, had they contacted the authorities, had they sent the employee to um an employee assistance program, had they even just done just the bare minimum of diligence here? Could this uh disaster catastrophe been avoided? And I mean, we we'll we'll never know the answer to that, but but the one thing we do know is they didn't do anything to try and stop it. And so we do know and whether that rises to the level of negligence, I mean, that'll be up to a jury at some point or a large settlement check to be cut by Walmart, so we'll never find out. But there's a lot of questions left to be answered, and it doesn't leave Walmart looking looking great under the circumstances.

Warren 4:02

No. Everything I've read does not put Walmart in a good light in this and it's hard to put uh an employee I don't want to blame an employer when something horrific like this happens, a workplace shooting or anything. But in this incident there were there were issues to be found that they they could respond to.

Jon 4:24

Yeah, if if my phone rings and it's a client calling me and says so-and-so is reporting, you know, it's an HR manager or VP from one of my clients is calling me and saying, you know, so-and-so came into my office and says that their coworker is, you know, they think they're dangerous or a threat or they're threaten, or they think they might do X, Y, or Z. You know, I know the one thing I'm I'm not doing is nothing, right? I'm doing something in that situation, whether it's firing the employee and hiring security or calling the I'm doing something. I say what what I don't want is blood on my hands, and that's what and that's unfortunately I think what won what it appears Walmart is left with here.

Warren 5:01

Yeah, yeah. Very, very unfortunate uh situation, but it's it's gonna be interesting to see how it plays out and how you know how bad it looks for HR, the HR team there as well. Is that it's it's not looking good right now, uh unfortunately. So and I I don't know whether that's at the store level, the district level, or or what have you, but yeah, it's all indications are it's not looking very good. So anyway, let's let's lighten the mood a little bit as much as it can be here and talk about your your worst employers of 2022 list. So what do you want to start by just going giving us the the two sentence brief on each of your your top seven that people are voting on right now?

Jon 5:49

Yeah, well let's well let's give a little bit of background, I guess. So this is the fifth year in a row I've compiled a list over at uh my website, the Ohio Employer Law Blog, OhioemployerLawblog.com, um, where I've compiled over the course of the year a list of America's worst employers. And you know, I've I've gotten many emails over the years that I've been doing this where, you know, people will say to me, you know, John, you are you're a management side employment lawyer, which I am. I've been representing businesses for 25 years in uh labor and employment law. You're a management side employment lawyer. Why are you pointing out all the bad things that employers do? You know, and the answer is that yes, while I I while I am an advocate for employers, there is nevertheless, there is a lot we can learn from the from the bad things that employers do. And the goal sh the goal of every employer should be like not to end up on my list, right? That should be that should be the goal. And we've had over the years, we've had some doozies that have won. So I compile these these over the course of the year, and then I throw them up in a poll, and then I ask people to vote, and then I name the worst, um, the winner of the worst employer, or the biggest loser, however you want to look at it, at the end of the year. And so we've had a murderer won one year, we've had some human we've had some human some human traffickers win, I think twice, human traffickers once. There, there have been some doozies, and this year's list of nominees has not disappointed. I've narrowed it down to I had 14 over the course of the year. And the question I always ask myself, when I ask myself again in a couple weeks when I s when 2023 starts and I I go to compile this list again, is you know, will 2023 live up to the hype? Will I be able to get enough worthy nominees to um, you know, to to compile a ballot at the end of the year? And I've done it for five years, and and uh it America's employers have never disappointed me. I've always been able to fill out to fill out a pretty full list of some pretty awful conduct. And this year's nominees have not disappointed. So do you want me to kind of run through them in kind of serial summary fashion?

Warren 7:58

Yeah, the the the two-minute spiel or the less than two minutes, a couple sentence show spiel, wow, on each of your seven, what they did to to earn to make it onto your top seven.

Jon 8:08

All right, I will do them in alphabetical order so as not to so as not to unduly or unnecessarily influence the voting, right? So if you go to vote every time you so every time someone votes, it re it relists or reorders the the nominees so as not to not to uh influence how people vote. So I always get I the most fun part of doing this is the name I get to come up with kind of catchy kind of literate alliterative names for the nominees. So the first one is not alliterative, but it does, it is a nice segue since we were just talking about an actual shooter at a Walmart. This is not an actual shooting, it was an active shooter drill at a nonprofit organization that went very, very, very wrong. The nonprofit hired this third party to conduct an active shooter drill, but it didn't tell anyone it was a drill. And including the, including the police. It didn't include the police in that there was an active shooter drill, it didn't include its employees in. And in addition to not telling anyone it was a drill, it also didn't tell anyone that the shooter would be using a real assault rifle loaded with blanks, or that he was going to stage actors as victims around the around the around the building to make it look as real as possible. When this was all said and done, the the Omaha, this happened in Omaha, Nebraska, the Omaha World Herald interviewed one of the employees, and her quote or her quote to the press was, This is it, I'm done. Like she thought she was dead. And so that's nominee number one, the active shooter, for planning a hyper-realistic active shooting drill without telling anyone it was it was an actual drill.

Warren 9:50

I bet they could have gotten away with sending an email that nobody would have read, hey, similar service. We're having a drill.

Jon 9:56

Yeah, this is not a drill, this is a drill. Yeah. But there were people jumping out of windows into dumpsters, people legitimately thought they were gonna die. So all right, so that's number one, the active shooter. Number two, I've called the cancerous employment cancellor. This is a car dealership who fired an employee who was away for work under to undergo some cancer testing. She thought she had, and actually turned out she did. She was ultimately diagnosed with cancer. She took time away from work to go in and get her biopsy and then recover from the biopsy. But while she's away on this need of absence, while she's getting tested for and ultimately diagnosed with cancer, she's fired. The employer tells her it's, you know, it's not you, it's us. Your performance is fine, but we think you just need to quote, focus on your health. So that's number two, the cancerous employment cancer.

Warren 10:49

And they put that in writing. They gave it to her in writing. Yep. Here's my Sumi paperwork right here.

Jon 10:56

Yep. Uh not it's not you, it's us. Your performance is fine. You need to quote, focus on your health. So, yeah. So that's number two, the cancerous employment cancellor. Number three, the hurricane haranger comes out of Southern Florida during Hurricane Ian from a couple of months ago. There's a a manufacturer of postcards in that in the South Florida area. Hurricane Ian is barreling down on South Florida. They're closing out their fiscal quarter. The CEO is worried about making their numbers. And she tells employees that they are expected, no matter what, to work a full 40-hour week through the storm, whether it's from the office, if they can get into the office, fine. If it's from their homes while they're hunkered down during the storm, if it's from an evacuation center, whatever. She wants everybody working their full 40-hour week. And by the way, if you can make it into the office, bring your family, bring your kids, bring your dogs, we'll give them a place to hang out while you go about completing your work week so we can quote make our number because we need to have a strong, we need to have a strong quarter. Number three, the hurricane haranguer. That sounds reasonable, you know? You think? Bring your kids. Yeah, we'll have, you know, we'll have popcorn. You know, if the power, if the power stays on, we'll put some Disney movies up on the, you know, up on the flat screen form in the conference room. We'll make a party out of it. Yeah. Not sure if we'll be able to get the pizza delivered during the hurricane, but you know, bunker down or hunker down and we'll we'll make the best of it as as long as as long as we make our numbers. Yeah. All right. Number four. This is a really sad story. The murder enabler. There's actually it's actually two murders. Um uh two murders on the list this year. This is this is the first of two. Walgreens, not Walmart, but Walgreens, which is another Sam Walton, another Sam Walton venture. They had a drugstore out in the Colorado area. They had a 16-year-old female employee who was cleaning to store management, that one of her coworkers, a 26-year-old, 28-year-old male, was uh acting inappropriately and making her uncomfortable, making uncomfortable sexual advances towards her in the workplace. The management of the store did absolutely nothing in response to her complaints other than pulling the uh alleged harasser aside and telling him to, quote, keep things professional. A few months later, she turned up dead in the in the break room with neck injuries covered in blood, and the alleged harasser was ultimately arrested for her murder. Seems to be a pattern developing in the wall brand of stores, I think, of of of ignoring some red flags. As as I think this through, this seems like this might be a systemic failure in companies founded by Sam Walton. I don't know.

Warren 14:03

Oh, it possibly. I I don't have strong feelings for Walgreens, one way or the other, don't go there, but yeah, this is just too much. I mean, as the girl complained, and all well, at least they said something. Stay away, keep it professional. They they did, you know, fingers millimeter apart there. They did that much.

Jon 14:21

Yeah, they they they literally did the bare minimum.

Warren 14:24

Bare minimum.

Jon 14:25

Yeah, the absolute bare minimum. Yeah. The next one is my favorite story. This is what I've called the shitty supervisor. Supervisor wants to, I guess, motivate the employees, so he gives them a bunch of energy drinks to drink. What he doesn't tell them was that he had mixed colon cleanser in with the energy drinks, and then after they guzzle it down, he then starts mocking them by singing, you just drank colon cleanser as they realize what happened and frantically run off to the bathroom before they before they before they soil their pants in the workplace. So I'm I I I laugh. I mean, I mean, I guess poop jokes are funny, so you laugh, but have you listened to you haven't listened to all of our podcasts. We had a whole segment, unfortunately. I I I always say that in in l in less and until you've cleaned you've cleaned shit off of walls, you can't say you worked in HR.

Warren 15:21

Yeah, poop HR is a real thing.

Jon 15:23

It's it's real, it's real, it's yeah, it it is it is a real thing. And yeah. And uh it is a real thing. And yeah, if you can't say you you've you know you've cleaned, you you've cleaned poop, then you you have not yet earned your HR stripes.

Warren 15:38

Absolutely.

Jon 15:39

Yeah. All right, we got we got two more to go. The next one is is murder number two on the list. This is the slaughtering supervisor who murdered murdered a whistleblower. A supervisor along with two other people, his brother and another guy, concocted a scheme to embezzle like millions from the business they worked for. They did this by uh illegally employing undocumented workers and then diverting large portions of their paychecks to their own bank accounts and just leaving them really just the not even the bare minimum to live on. The another employee, legal worker, documented legal U.S. citizen worker, found out about the scheme, blew the whistle both to the U.S. government and to the owner of the company, and the brain trust of this scheme murdered him. He and his brother and the other guy um shot him. The what the the they were all the two conspired, the third pulled the trigger, they all went to prison. Two pled guilty, one was just convicted, the guy who actually pulled the trigger was just convicted. Yeah, so the supervisor who murdered the subordinate, his subordinate employee for blowing the whistle on this scheme to steal from undocumented workers, the slaughtering supervisor, nominee number six.

Warren 17:02

See, I was really expecting that one to go the far go route. You're working with a a murderer and a true, you know, tree trimming company. I was really expecting the first time I read it through that we were gonna have a fargo situation there. And I don't know.

Jon 17:19

They always they they they always make you buy the true code. Yeah, and then the the last nominee is alphabetically was also the last nominee of the year on my list. The slumlord supervisor. This comes from a middle school in one of New York City's boroughs. The school principal had was employed, was legally employing immigrants from, I think it was from the from the Dominican Republic, they were coming here on like a work-sharing program and teaching in the schools. The middle school principal, when they got to the school, basically told him they had to live in his in his illegal boarding house and then shook them down for an exorbitant rent to live in this, what was essentially like a slum house, and told him that if they did not live where he told them to and paid him rent, he was going to uh fire them from their jobs and have them deported. So the slum lord supervisor nominee number seven. So that completes this year's list of illustrious nominees for the worst employer of 2022. And now I feel like I need a shower after reading through all several.

Patrick 18:23

Not a lot of funny, humorous ones in there.

Jon 18:25

No, the colon cleanse is probably as funny as it gets. And if you think that feels really not all that funny.

Warren 18:31

So it I the first time I read the the Colon Cleanse one, we did a little episode on it. That was just I was literally rolling, I had tears. I could see the day, you know, you she was singing and dancing, the supervisor was mocking them, singing and dancing. I could just see them, you just drank Colin Cleanse. Oh, I would I I was picturing it in my head with that. I was just, oh no.

Jon 18:53

It just Yeah, and those are only and there were 14 nominees total. Those are seven. There were there were seven others that did not make the cut.

Warren 19:00

So was there anybody you would give a honorable mention to, someone who just didn't quite, you know, coin flip went the wrong way for him?

Jon 19:09

Vince McMahon, I had as a nominee, Vince McMahon, the former chairman of WW Wrestling, who liked to have sex with female subordinates and then get them to sign or pay them settlements off the books and lock them down with like confidentiality agreements. I think nobody, I don't think anybody who follows or knows anything about Vince McMahon's history or wrestling is lives under any uh misconceptions that like Vince is a good guy. He's not a good guy. There's been allegations. I mean, there were historical allegations that he once raped an employee, he maybe threw some bad safety at the shows, maybe probably contributed to the death of Owen Hart, who fell off some rigging to his death. He's just he's not a good guy. There was the whole uh steroid scandal back in the back in the 90s. So I felt maybe overkill to include Vince as a finalist just because he's been such a such a lousy human being for so long. But I would say if there was one I struggled on whether to put him on the list or not, that was probably the one.

Warren 20:14

Yeah, Vince McMahon, not one of East Carolina's most best alumni. Yeah. We have a lot of great alumni, not not him.

Jon 20:23

Yeah. So so so that's where we are. We got we got seven nominees. People can go to Ohio Employer Lawblog.com. The link is right at the top of the page. It you can't miss it, it's in bold, and it says click here to vote for the worst employer of 2022. And then it's it's ranked choice voting. This is if you if anyone follows politics at all, this has been all the rage lately. Um, of the seven nominees, you have the opportunity to vote for up to five, and you rank them one being the worst, up to five being the fifth least worst, I guess, is the best way to put it. And then a nominee needs fifty percent plus one of first place votes to win. And so first round, there's seven nominees. If someone doesn't get fifty percent plus one of the first place votes out of those seven, whoever came in seventh place gets knocked off, and their votes then get redistributed among the six remaining from how they voted top to bottom with the one they voted number one off the list. And then that can the and those eliminations continue round around until someone accumulates enough votes to be declared the winner. So it's been a it's been it's been exciting. There's we're approaching a thousand votes, which is really cool. Voting is open for another week. Voting will remain open till the 14th of December. I'll announce the winner or loser, I guess, depending on your perspective, on the 21st of December. No one has yet claimed their trophy. I doubt anyone will claim their trophy again this year. But uh please go to Ohio EmployerLawblog.com, click the Link at the top of the page and have your say on who is the worst employer of 2022.

Patrick 22:05

I am curious, are you ever contacted by people during this time doing this?

Jon 22:12

I have not been yet. This is the fifth year we're approaching probably close to 100 nominees in total, and not one has ever contacted me. Every now and again, I've been writing this blog now for over 15 years, but I write just about five days a week. So there's well over like 3,000 posts I've written over the years. And I can count on maybe one hand the number of times someone has contacted me about something I've written. It's usually a plaintiff in a case who says, please take your post down, you're defaming me. And I'm like, well, you know, you chose to sue, and all these facts are coming from the opinion that the judge wrote about why your case doesn't have any merit. So what am I supposed to do? Right. I'm not it's it's publicly available information. If you don't want your story to be out on the internet, like don't sue your employer. That's one of the downsides of suing your employers, you're creating a public record of the facts. So I don't think I've ever taken down anything I've written over the years. I don't think. I maybe have made an addendum here or there to a post because someone made a compelling enough case, but I've never deleted a post I've written. And I do think long and hard, because the one thing I don't want to have happen is have people start emailing my partners to say, you gotta see what Hyman writes. You know, I don't want to, that's just I mean, I do I don't get paid for this, right? This is this is a hobby of mine, and so it's a headache I don't need is having that conversation with my coworkers. But in terms of the worst employer itself, no one has ever taken issue with their inclusion on the list. So maybe they just realize the virality that would come of that maybe isn't worth the maybe isn't worth the maybe isn't worth the ask. I don't know.

Warren 23:59

Now I most of the people who show up are these small companies that probably don't have too much of a maybe Activision Blizzard last year, they they were larger, and boy, their HR department really screwed the pooch too last year. They did.

Jon 24:12

They did.

Warren 24:13

Let's shred some things, everybody.

Jon 24:15

Yeah. They did. There, there are some larger employers, but but by and large, these are I mean, so Walgreens is on the list this year. So there are definitely some larger employers, but by and large, right, these are stories that I'm picking up from like local, from you know, local news, and they're not they're not what you would call employers that would otherwise garner any kind of attention whatsoever. So you're right, they probably they don't have PR departments or marketing departments, they don't probably have in-house legal, they might not even have a lawyer on retainer. And so, and you know, if Walgreens writes me a letter and says, please take down your story, naming the, you know, our store in Colorado that maybe possibly probably allowed this poor teenage girl to get murdered, take the story down. That that email or letter is going right up on the blog to say, look at, you know, look at what they want me to do. And, you know, it's the facts there are pretty, you know, are pretty undisputed. Like I, whenever I publish something, I do have a very like I always have the could this be perceived as defamatory filter that I run through my brain because I don't, I don't want to get sued, right? That's that's not the goal this is for Hyman to get sued for something we wrote on the internet. The goal is to educate people and have a little bit of fun. And so if if I write something or I think about writing something, and my if there's any doubt whatsoever this could result in an issue for me, I don't write it. If you make the list as a worst employer nominee, I'm I'm pretty confident A, the allegations are true. B, I'm pulling it from publicly available information, and C, I'm really confident that what I'm saying is not going to result in someone suing me for you know suing me for libel.

Warren 25:54

So

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Warren 25:55

interesting. Now now Patrick and I are familiar with an employer that had a a come to work no matter what policy.

(Cont.) Jon Hyman Joins Us To Review His Worst Employers of 2022

Warren 26:42

I don't know if that's still the case there, but w snow, storms, hurricanes, didn't matter. You were you were at work. That was in yeah, that that was the the environment there, for better or worse.

Jon 26:56

Did you see the did you see the story today about Olive Garden store in Kansas? Oh no. Manager at the Olive Garden store in somewhere in Kansas sent the following message to his employees. It said, We are no longer taking any excuses for calling off. If you're sick, you need to come prove it to us. If your dog died, bring him in and prove it to us. If it's a family emergency, too bad, go work somewhere else.

Warren 27:22

Wow.

Jon 27:23

Uh Olive Garden got wind of it. I think employees complained to corporate, and that manager got very, very quickly fired. So good for Olive Garden for doing the right thing and fixing that problem before it became a problem. But man, if your dog died, bring us the dead dog. No excuses for calling off if you're sick.

Patrick 27:38

Health code violations in there as well. Yeah, but you know what? I'd love to see an employee call that bluff and be like, yeah, here. What do you think?

Warren 27:47

I just found this one on the side of the road on my way when I did want to come to work.

Jon 27:52

The moral of the story is don't order the bolognese at that Olive Garden.

Warren 27:57

Oh gosh. I talk about companies I don't care for, Olive Garden. Yeah, Mick McIntalian restaurant there. Right. I just yeah, there's so much better out there. Yeah, I I just I'm just continuing fascinated. I don't see I don't understand the LinkedIn metrics. Sometimes I'll see your stuff, sometimes I have to, if I don't see it the first few scrolls down, I go to your website. It's I I don't understand LinkedIn that much. How they decide I see that was from four weeks ago.

Jon 28:27

Yeah, sometimes things catch fire and like the whole world sees them. Sometimes I write something that I'm in love with and you know, 50 people see it. So who so who who the heck knows how it works?

Patrick 28:36

Yeah. Sometimes we record a podcast and we think we did great. Sometimes it gets seven downloads.

Jon 28:44

If a pot if a podcast is published in a wood and doesn't make and makes a noise, yeah, right.

Warren 28:48

But did did you all see we are number one comedy podcast in Swaziland, verified by Apple?

Jon 28:56

Really? All right. I I have a question.

Warren 28:59

Yes.

Jon 28:59

Where where is where is Swaziland?

Warren 29:02

South Africa. It's the area that's in South Africa. So yes, we are number and number three overall all podcasts, verified by Apple.

Patrick 29:11

And that is for two downloads out of the seven downloads they got all together in Swaziland.

Jon 29:17

I think it's time for uh I think it's time for uh a live show in Swaziland. Oh man.

Warren 29:21

Hey, if someone could want to sponsor us for that, come on, Walmart. Sponsor us there you go. Or Chipotle as much as much time as we spend. Uh every the number one employer we talk about here just seems to be Chipotle. They just do so much bad, so many bad things, it's crazy.

Jon 29:36

So so Warren, did you did you you said you voted for on for the for the worst employer? Yes. Do you want to share who you voted for?

Warren 29:45

Okay, I absolutely will. The I number one is the murder enabler. Okay, and why and why why I don't think you get too much worse.

Jon 29:53

Okay, and and that's and that's the worst why.

Warren 29:57

I mean, a little girl died, and they didn't do much to to stop that. If she complained, they took, like I said, the bare minimum action of okay, let's keep it professional, and things like that. So I I I've got to give that one the number one. I voted the shitty supervisor number two just because it is just so funny. I I love that one. And then slaughtering supervisor probably was number three. So those those three really were the were my top three.

Jon 30:26

All right.

Warren 30:27

But but yeah, murdering enabler was by far and away my my worst employer.

Patrick 30:33

I think I did the same thing, I did the exact same thing. And same reasoning. The sh the shady supervisor was just my it was just amusing. Childishness. Yeah. For whatever reason. The murder enabler just really rubbed me the wrong way.

Jon 30:44

And I think you just you you just you you you just picture that person singing the song, right?

Warren 30:48

Yeah. Exactly. I uh I would have loved it if they'd like locked the bathroom doors shut or something like that before they did all this as well. So don't want to give anybody ideas here.

Jon 31:00

No, please don't. Or if they want to make the list next year, maybe give them ideas. I don't know.

Warren 31:04

People try harder.

Jon 31:05

But don't don't kill it. Do better, America. Yeah, so you'll have to you'll have to uh check in on December 21 to see if to see how your choice is fared in the uh and and to see if someone will actually accept the trophy this year. That's the most exciting part.

Warren 31:19

Yeah. I I would love uh Walgreens came up to you and you know, you got a big picture on your post holding up the trophy. Here we go. And we're the worst employer of of 2022.

Patrick 31:31

I don't know if he's made it on there in the past, but hasn't has Elon Musk made it on your list, or do you see him in the future getting off?

Jon 31:38

Certainly in the future, I think it's I think it's I think it's possible. Yeah. He's d he's not he's not only a bad, he's just a bad human. I mean, now there's allegations. He has this um why anybody would take a brain implant manufacturer by Elon Musk, I have no idea. And I forget the name of the company that's he's meant he's neurolike. Yeah, right, right. Where now the story today is that maybe he's like abusing animals and the testing. 1500 animals or something like that. Jeez, man. He's like he he went he went from like when Tesla first came out, he was like the coolest dude, and he went from that to Bond villain, and like in the span of like six months, the transformation's complete.

Patrick 32:27

Yeah, I I like the name Phony Stark.

Jon 32:31

That's a good one too.

Warren 32:32

Yeah, yeah. Patrick and I have differing opinions on Milan. I think he's a horrible manager, but he he's just a a a grown-up kid flaunting his money. You don't like me on Twitter? Screw you. I'm gonna buy it and do whatever I want.

Jon 32:48

Yeah, for $46 billion, right? It must be nice to have that kind of money, just that kind of FU money just to say, like, yeah, I'm gonna do that. That's what I think he does. That's I'm gonna buy myself.

Warren 32:58

And I he has things that he does care about and then things that screw you, I'm gonna I'm gonna screw with you more.

Patrick 33:04

So I I just I thought about it when you said Vince McMahon and he he had several, I guess, encounters. I think because I think Musk has like nine kids with different loaning or something like that.

Jon 33:15

He does. He does. And this whole all the and you know, the the layoffs and the firings and the fire fire you, bring you back. You know, we need, you know, he's putting uh putting beds in at you know Twitter's headquarters, people can work around the clock building code, and it's just why anybody would uh knowing what knowing what we now know why anybody would choose to go work for him, I I have I have no idea. I think you kind of assume the risk at this point, maybe.

Warren 33:41

See, the company I work for, we actually lost one of our top engineers to Tesla a couple years ago. And this was this guy who wanted to work for for Musk and wanted to w he was like all in on Tesla, and he he left us on in the East Coast and went out to California, and I haven't been in touch with him since, but hope hope things are working out for him out there.

Jon 34:05

More more power to him, right?

Warren 34:07

Yeah, exactly. He's a good guy. If he needs a job, we're still hiring.

Patrick 34:13

If you hear this bill, come back.

Warren 34:16

I don't know if he's hearing this still. Yeah. So that's really all I wanted to do today. You you know, this is just a fascinating list. I I read the list every every time a new employer pops up because hey, it's great great conversation pieces for this podcast. But it's also it's just like you look at it and think, what were they thinking? Or how did they think this was a good idea? What what's going on in and going to the hurricane? I can see them the company bring in all these kids and their family, and then the roof collapses on that building. Now you've got quadrupled your uh your your liabilities of detailing. Yeah. Yeah. That was bring your kids, your dogs, and and everything like that in.

Jon 35:01

That was no, I I appreciate the opportunity to come on and talk about it and and publicize the the list and the survey. It's it's I'm gonna keep doing it as long as employers keep doing lousy things. I'm gonna keep putting out these lists. And my guess is they're not gonna stop. So coming in 2023, the sixth annual list of America's worst employer.

Warren 35:18

So just give me a heads up before you see my name on the list.

Jon 35:21

You got it. I'm reading about you tomorrow. Yeah, I've I've I've yet to actually see someone I know where I have to say, ah, do I really want to do that?

Warren 35:30

So all righty. Well, John, once again, thank you. And John, go ahead and tell us everywhere we can find you. You're very active on social media and beyond your Ohio Employer Law blog site.

Jon 35:42

Yeah, so Ohio Employer Law Blog is the blog. Kinslaw.com is the website for my law firm, Wiccan Cursor Panza, here in Avon, Ohio. Um, I I also have started a craft beer practice group representing breweries, and you can find that at OhioBeerlawyers.com on Twitter for as long as Twitter is still a thing at John Hyman. That's J-O-N-H-Y-M-A-N. On LinkedIn, it's Jonathan Hyman. If you go to the blog, ohioemployerloveblog.com, there's there's links to all this as well. And um, you know, like I'm test driving like Mastodon and and post news for planning for when Twitter falls, so there's somewhere else to kind of go and you kind of you know do the those quick kind of micro micro posts. And then you can check out my podcast too, the Nor and Dad Show. I do a podcast with my 16-year-old daughter Nor and Dad Show, everywhere podcasts are available. So uh yeah, I definitely don't hide. You can literally literally probably just Google John Hyman, employment lawyer, and all this will come up in some some order or some order or or another.

Warren 36:44

So great, great. Well, once again, I really want to thank you for for being with us. This is a lot of fun. Your second appearance on the show. Hopefully, we'll get you back another time.

Jon 36:54

Let's do it again next year.

Warren 36:55

Next time.

Jon 36:56

Same bad time, same bad channel, 2023.

Warren 36:59

2023. As long as my name's not on the list again.

Jon 37:02

There you go. We'll see what we can do.

Warren 37:04

All righty.

Patrick 37:05

Best practice, do not show up on John's list. Yes.

Jon 37:09

Think will this land me on Hyman's list? Yes or no. Am I on a hymn list? Try and check the no box.

Warren 37:16

So thank you once again, and want to thank the underscore orchestra for the use of the theme song Devil with the Devil, and Andrew Kolpa, our voice artist who does the disclaimer. So, as always, I'm Orin. I'm Patrick.

Jon 37:28

And I'm John.

Warren 37:30

And we're helping you survive HR one what the fuck moment at a time.