Jaded HR: Your Relief From the Common Human Resources Podcasts
Jaded HR is a Human Resources podcast about the trials and tribulations of life in a human resources department….or just a way for Human Resources Professionals to finally say OUT LOUD all the things they think throughout their working day.
Jaded HR: Your Relief From the Common Human Resources Podcasts
DEI Is Not Touchy-Feely, It's Good For Business.... So Suck On That
Ever wonder how your online rants could impact your job prospects? We kick off this episode with a personal story about Scout Motors and a disgruntled engineer who took to social media to air grievances after a job rejection. This sparks a lively discussion on the consequences of our digital footprints and the quirks of online reviews. But it's not all serious business—we also share a laugh over our TV habits and how shows like "Modern Family" have infiltrated our lives with their loud antics.
Switching gears, we tackle the ever-evolving landscape of executive orders and their implications for HR professionals, especially those in government contracting. We explore the fine line between executive orders and laws, and how recent changes are shaking up workplace policies. With insights from labor attorneys, we unpack the legal challenges looming on the horizon and delve into the strategic compliance maneuvers organizations are considering. Plus, we reflect on the potential impact of cutting DEI initiatives and why maintaining workplace ethics is as crucial as ever.
It's not just about regulations and compliance; we're also dissecting the myths and realities of DEI efforts in today's workplace. From social media's role in spreading misconceptions to the true aim of creating a level playing field, we leave no stone unturned. Our conversation touches on everything from the influence of past media like "The Office" to why inclusive environments are vital for employee retention and satisfaction. Join us as we navigate the complexities with humor, curiosity, and a dash of optimism for the future.
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you are about to listen to could contain explicit language and offensive content. These HR experts' views are not representative of their past, present or future employers. If you have ever heard, my manager is unfair to me. I need you to reset my HR portal password. Or Can I write up my employee for crying too much?
Speaker 2:Welcome to our little safe zone. Welcome to Jaded HR, the podcast by two HR professionals who want to help you get through the workday by saying everything you're thinking, but say it out loud. I'm Warren.
Speaker 2:I'm Cece it out loud I'm Warren, I'm Cece and I'm apologizing for the horrible, horrible audio in the last two episodes. So big secret, sometimes we record more than one at a time, so we can actually live life a little, and apparently I was. I'm assuming I was using my headphone microphones rather than my awesome Samsung Q2A or whatever it is, but anyways, awful audio. Hopefully today this will be better. I'm looking at a little chart of my voice and it's getting up to the yellows, so I'm thinking it might be better this time. So apologies apologies, apologies.
Speaker 1:And I want to apologize because I'm not sure if it was me or the mic situation last week, but I didn't realize how loud I talk and I should have taken a clue when I talked to my husband the other day and he was like you're so loud, it's just the two of us, but I'm a projector, so I apologize if I blew your eardrums off because I was listening to the last recording and I'm like gosh, my mic technique needs to get better.
Speaker 2:Well, speaking of people being, I think I mentioned before, we just started watching Modern Family and after a few episodes my wife has to turn it off. She says I can't stand all the yelling. I can't stand all the yelling. So we're almost through with that show, so we're going to be on to our next very, very soon. So well, we actually did our homework a little bit this week and have some topics to talk about. But I also wanted to bring up one other thing, a social media sour grapes thing. I'm to, I think I don't think I know I saved it sour grapes yeah, so I.
Speaker 2:There's a new car. Scout Motors is coming out with new cars in 2026 or maybe 2027, and so I've been following Scout Motors online because I'm most likely going to be buying one. I don't buy the car the first year it comes out, but the second year I'm going to buy one of them because I really like everything I've seen about it. Well, I follow them on all their little social medias. This one dude they're talking about the new two Scout vehicles that have come out. One's an SUVv, one's a pickup truck and he's. And one thing I like about scout motors they're engaging with the people who follow them on social media and if you make a comment, a lot of times they're going to comment back and they answer questions and it's, you know, for a product that's not on the market yet might not be out of the market for two years. I I think it's really, really cool. So I'm following him on social media. And this one dude he gets online and he's listed as a top fan. This is from Facebook.
Speaker 2:It's been a real disappointing week for Scout. As an experienced engineer working the automotive, I was discarded as a potential employee. From what I feel, it's just a simple difference on how automakers launch their new vehicles. I keep my pride. However, scout needs to understand their loss and I was like maybe this dude is just completely deep. You know, maybe you didn't get hired this time you plug into the next opportunity, or maybe when I'm recruiting I've had I can't count the number of candidates they didn't work this job. Right now I call them back when I have another and guess who wouldn't be getting a call back.
Speaker 2:It's like I said this that guy, he, this, this company, they're active on it there, they respond, they, they, they. They didn't respond to his message. A lot of other people did. It looks like are you disappointed because you weren't hired? It sounds like it's not Scout's loss, but people are. You know just why? Just you know why? A lot of the stuff are on this?
Speaker 2:Because Scout is an electric vehicle and a lot of people are. You know. Oh too bad, this is an EV, it would be great if it had a Turbo 6 and all these other things. People are disparaging it, but they're in there sometimes. Oh well, we do. They respond in kind, but anyways, I just thought really, why go on their product page to bitch and moan about it? Anyways, I was saying he's an electrical engineer. I hire electrical engineers. He's going to make me think toys about. You know, if our recruiter is I, she sees me on all her resume submissions and I peak at about 60, 70% of them. I don't read the resumes but I'm like, oh, that's a good resume. I, you know, I want to say, hey, this is a good resume, I like this good work and things like that. I don't, I'm not involved in the hiring process, I just like to look and so I would probably say, whoa, let's talk about this dude before we get too far along. So that's awesome. Social media.
Speaker 1:There is a. There's a podcast for anyone non HR related that I just like to throw out there. If you, if you're a big fan of examining the psychology of what people put in reviews and kind of the stupidity that people write in reviews online, a great podcast is my stupid or your stupid opinion Great. And kind of the stupidity that people write in reviews online A great podcast is your stupid opinion Great. I'm not affiliated with them. I enjoy it every week, so imagine all that stuff, but just a podcast. So if you're looking for something non-HR related to cleanse your palate, your stupid opinion is great.
Speaker 2:I just wrote it down. I'm going to check that out. As I tell you, I recently went through and I purged my podcast list. It's things that I'm not enjoying anymore for various reasons, and one of my very, very favorite podcasts overall, by topic. It's like their audio quality is so much and they have credits and our producer is da-da-da-da. I'm like your producer must be a six-year-old. This is even my. Our last two weeks episodes sound a lot better than any of their episodes and I'm just so close to calling it quits as it's. It's so I've turned off episodes in the middle. That I'm interested in is. I just can't listen to it anymore but they, they don't record anymore.
Speaker 1:what is it? The oh, oh the podcast? It's an HR podcast.
Speaker 2:HR Famous.
Speaker 1:HR Famous Tim.
Speaker 2:Sackett, and JD. And oh gosh, who's the third? Lee Lee Lee.
Speaker 1:So I loved their content. Yes, but Lee had to get a microphone. Like I would listen to that podcast and I'm one to talk because I'm like shouting into a microphone and I apologize if I was doing that, but but I think she was like recording from like old fashioned plug in earbuds because I just wanted to scream every time I listened. I'm like everything you're saying is valid and amazing, great content, fun. Get a better mic.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You're a VP of a company, you can afford a better mic.
Speaker 2:Well, I think they would do their podcast. I remember him saying once upon a time and they just went off the air and I am very upset about that but they would just do it either early in the morning before they start their day, or during lunch or something that you know they were just squeezing it in when they can. But you know, I'm down to I don't know how many podcasts on my three, six, nine, 12, 15. I'm down to like 18 podcasts, but I still have on here hostile work environment and where they haven't recorded in forever. Surfing corporate they haven't recorded in forever. And then you have but yeah, I've just purged a whole bunch, just got rid of them.
Speaker 2:But everyone's one like server not serving corporate well, they did the same thing. But also work environment they went there for like two years and then all of a sudden, because I still had it in my list, I'm listening and the next one up is is them. I'm like whoa great, and then they're. So I keep it there, but I hope that they'll come back. So, mark and Kate, if you ever listen to us at all, we had Kate on one time. Bring it back, please. But anyways.
Speaker 1:So I'm laughing because, speaking of which and then we can get into the meaty HRE conversation. But I did have a moment where I was just being very chatty. I think my ADHD got the best of me and I overshared and I ended up telling my boss about this and he wrote it down. So if my manager's listening, hi and don't hold anything against me, Thanks.
Speaker 2:Oh, so your boss knows you're on the show now.
Speaker 1:Oh so your boss knows you're on the show now. He was like asking about like HR podcasts to listen to and I was like wow.
Speaker 2:Promote.
Speaker 1:There we go. And then afterward I was like was that smart? But it's fine, I don't. It's not like. I mean, I speak very highly of my company and my manager, so we're fine, we're fine. I speak very highly of my company and my manager, so we're fine.
Speaker 2:We're fine. Well, my assistant found out I don't share it with people at work that I do a podcast. My assistant found out as we went to a conference and I ran into several old co-workers who worked with Patrick and I and they were there when we first announced we're doing a podcast and they listen regularly. So Lisa, desiree, hey, but they start talking to the podcast and then Anna, my assistant, starts asking you have a podcast? I'm like, yeah, and so I don't go out blurting it about, but I'm recording one of our open enrollment sessions right now. I'm using our podcast software to edit it because it's better than it's. I know how to use it and I can do it quickly. When we recorded one of our episodes, I can get it out to the the employees pretty quickly. So, yeah, that's so. I'm not hiding it, but I'm not like promoting it at work, but I will be promoting it at the Virginia Sherm conference in middle of April. So if you're going to be down here, look for me. I'll be handing out little cards with a QR code and something like that. So, yay, let's see.
Speaker 2:Before we get into the meat of our subject, let's go ahead and do our thank yous to our Patreon supporters Hallie, the original Jaded HR rock star, bill and Mike. So thank you all very much. Your support is very much appreciated because we are, like I think I said, maybe in December we renewed our subscription to the recording and editing software. Thanks to you. Thank you for that. So, yep, that's, that's what we have going on. So the topic of the day and we're going to try to keep this as apolitical as we can of the day and we're going to try to keep this as apolitical as we can it's gonna be all the wonderful fun executive elders flying out of the, the White House right now and the the wonderful time it's creating for HR professionals.
Speaker 1:So what a time what a time.
Speaker 2:I just wanna?
Speaker 1:I just wanna let everyone know that I am drinking in old-fashioned cuz that is the time I am having.
Speaker 2:It's empty, it is gone. We're going to have to pause. We're now pausing for a short commercial break, but yeah, so we're not going to, you know, get too political. As I, you know, I've mentioned before, I despise when I'm listening for whatever content they want to get, especially if I'm in a sport, if I'm listening to sports podcasts and all of a sudden, I don't want to hear your politics in my sports at all period, end of story. But anyways, yeah, so where to? Which executive order? Which shakeup, which change do you want to start with today? We could do a week's worth of episodes on just the first, you know week of executive orders and their impact on HRs.
Speaker 1:Seriously, yeah, we can talk about the EEOC piece. Okay, because I want to preface this by saying I live in talent management. I know enough to be dangerous. A lot of me is just thinking out loud. Do not hold it against me. I'm an old-fashioned deep and yeah, I'm yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can actually see it both ways. I think there's a lot of overreaction from people about some of these executives. Some of them need to be reacted to as they are. Some of them there's some overreaction to, but and, and some of them, it's like you know, regard. This is probably as political as I get. If trump says today is tuesday, february 4th, which it is, somebody's gonna get their ass chapped so badly about that because it's the most marvelous day and this is a great day and the fourth is always the greatest day. You know he speaks weirdly in superlatives all the time, but even if he's saying something that's absolutely factual, he's gonna he's gonna piss somebody off. You know, something like today's Tuesday, and I've seen a lot of that stuff to the point where really, people okay, it's time to come up for air a little bit, but anyways, yeah I give, I give people grace, just because you know people are scared, they're worried, yeah I, I and I can understand that, but, yeah, it's so.
Speaker 2:The eoc so with and I learned this my our labor and employment attorneys have been doing guest webinars, like three a week lately, and I haven't done them all. Some of them are like immigration and things like that. We don't have to worry about immigration where I work, but the executive order for government contractors, which goes straight into the EEOC and the Affirmative Action, is something that I'm paying very, very close attention to and so it is interesting just to preface that like so, Warren, you work for a company that is a government contractor, yes, and I work for a company that is private equity, private sector.
Speaker 1:So I think, yeah, there's like there's that there's a difference there.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, yeah, there's like there's that there's a difference there. Yes, yeah, because, like even our contracts and our president, the president of our company and I were taught we've had in the past week we've had know, does the executive order mean that poof? Normally, when a government contractor does any change like the slightest change, like oh well, okay, we're going to need one more software developer than you bid for for this, so it goes through a contract mod and it's a whole big thing to do what you know. Hey, I need another software developer. Okay, fine, it's not that easy. But so to take the affirmative action out, are they going to do a whole contract mod for this?
Speaker 2:And you know, one of the revocations of and I don't know the numbers of these executive orders, but the one that's one of the many that's causing a stir is the revocation of affirmative action in the workplace. So it's really interesting and it's funny. I learned about it first on my way, like Thursday I did a webinar with our attorneys, and then Friday I was listening to Good Morning HR with Mike Coffey and he's discussed the same thing, but I didn't know this Affirmative action, eeo is not a law and it was actually an executive order by Johnson.
Speaker 1:LBJ.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that created it. So because it was done by executive order, any president can go on and say, well, this one doesn't count anymore. And that's pretty much exactly what happened. But the difference is, when it comes to veterans and disabilities, those are codified laws. The ADA is an actual law that the president it has to go through Congress to change the veterans. The protections are actual law. So you know, that's why this all happened.
Speaker 1:Do you know where country of origin is still?
Speaker 2:Do you know where country of origin is still? Because I remember it's race, gender, country of origin and then there's disability and stuff like that. So I that pretty much destroys your affirmative action plan. You can still report on veteran status and disability, but race and gender are the ones that are under the target. My next webinar I'll throw that in the question and answer sessions. I'm doing another later this week with the attorneys, as they're just rapid firing these things out. Like I said, there's been three a week since last week, so but yeah, I'll throw that question out there. But it's it's really, it's really interesting.
Speaker 2:And one of the things as an affirmative action employer EEO, affirmative action employer the executive order requires us to remove. Well, the first executive order required us to have that little blurb at the bottom of your job postings. We are an affirmative action equal employment opportunity. We don't da, da, da, da da. Now employers have like 90 days to be compliant and our philosophy is we're going to wait till like day 85 to do anything. And I'm being serious, I laugh. I'm being serious because I would be very surprised if a judge didn't step in and either just pause it or just throw it out completely. Some group out there is going to find a sympathetic judge. That's what they do. You think that these things mysteriously end up in certain judges' laps? No, they find the district. Okay, we need you to bring up this lawsuit in this district so we can have this judge. And yeah, that's exactly what they're doing. But it's going to be interesting. But but are we? We're still going to be required to? Hey, we don't discriminate against veterans or veterans status of disability as well.
Speaker 1:But in the other part and I don't know if it's the same executive order or not is the ending of illegal DEI programs and I've covered so I think this is where I'm so, this is where I'm like, personally struggling and this is so like the so back to like the EEOC stuff. Like those things were brought into place because bad behaviors were happening and I think I I feel like we put guardrails I'm gonna say this very kindly, but I'm gonna say it very bluntly we put guardrails in for the lowest common denominator, we put guardrails in for the, for people the redneck good old boy who act, I like, ah, so basically, like there are, there are things and I and I I would hate to think and I will say this because I want to clarify this is not at my current company, this is at past companies, but I don't know.
Speaker 1:So I was in charge of recruiting, essentially for my new boss's boss. It was a really fun position to be put into. It was like the new head of HR for a company and they just basically said Christina, you're the only person here that can. That's recruiting, so you find it. So I was like recruiting for my manager's boss, that's recruiting, so you find it. So I was like recruiting for my manager's boss.
Speaker 1:And I remember we were in a room and the the president and the owner of that company said with a dead ass serious face well, I, it was. Oh, by the way, backtrack, it was two candidates. We were down to a white male and a white female, and he said that the female candidate, the woman candidate, drove up in a red BMW to her interview. That's the car she chose to drive. And he said I have an issue with that because that doesn't really fit with the culture here, to which my jaw dropped on the floor, because these biases happen and I don't think people understand and I'm speaking as a white woman, right, these biases happen. And I'm speaking as a white woman, right, these biases happen and I witnessed it and thankfully, I mean I'm going to put a little asterisk next to this.
Speaker 1:I was an itty bitty girl, like I just started, like I didn't have the backbone to stand up to the president of the company, but thankfully someone in the room did, and then I had the strength to then back it up. But the question was, I don't really think that the car she drives is going to affect the way in which she does her work. And long story short, spoiler alert we ended up or they ended up deciding on the mail and guess who showed up to work? Guess what, he showed up driving to work.
Speaker 2:A red BMW, please, please.
Speaker 1:But like. So these are the behaviors that happen. So I would hate to think that, because we're no longer, like, supposed to do it, that we're going to start reverting back, because they happen. And I know, like it's one of those lessons that I learned to be a better advocate, because in hindsight I was like, but at the same time you're young, you're new to career, you don't want to like piss off the president of the company, but at the same time, like I'm glad someone else in there with tenure, what did speak up, because that shit pissed me off and I hear it and I I hear these little micro like oh, it's like, oh, and I would hate to think that someone would be passed up for a promotion because they're pregnant, or someone's passed up for a promotion because they're too old, or someone is passed up for like. These are the things that worry me, because now there's no protection against that and I know we'd like to think that racism is dead, but racism and misogyny is alive and well.
Speaker 1:So like we're taking away these things and we're not doing anything to protect our workers. And spoiler alert today I don't know if you saw the bill to like get rid of, but that's another thing to like. These are, as an HR professional, like I'm not getting political. This is more morally no like. Yeah, I get. Like you're going to deregulate OSHA, like health and safety, and next we're going to have 80 hour work weeks because we're going to get rid of the 40-hour work week. We don't need regulation about that. So we keep chiseling away at these little things that are going to take us back to the triangle fire and people are going to die at work. And people are going to die at work. And I know it sounds like I'm catastrophizing but at the same time, I don't think I am, because these things were put into place for a reason.
Speaker 2:Oh, they absolutely were, because, just like all these, you hear these things and you think, oh, that's a stupid law. I'll go back to season one, one of the first episodes Patrick and I did, that's when the Crown Act got passed and you can hear me talking and say what a stupid waste of time to make a dumbass law. Who the hell discriminates on the basis of hair. I was just like why, why? Why it wasn't six months until there was a case brought up on it, and I'm like I literally just can't fathom that. I really and I just I don't know, and you can listen to me on that episode. This is so stupid. I don't know why they did it. It really fired me up back then, but then it fired me up just as much. It was within a year if it wasn't six months is within a year that there were court cases coming up about violations of the Crown Act.
Speaker 1:I'm like yeah, really, you know, because people do it. You have to make regulations based on the stupidest person, and I hate to say it like that, but that's basically or I'm sorry, not the stupid the most ignorant person. You have to make regulation because ignorance is a choice you have to make. You have to make those rules for the most ignorant population and I'm sorry, I said it. You can come at you, come at my Instagram if you want. I'll probably just delete it, but whatever, fuck it.
Speaker 2:No, I absolutely agree. And oh, I spoke about hostile work environment. When the show was on, they would talk about these cases and these people won a lawsuit because one person refused to. Every day, they wore a sticker on their shirt showing how many days the plant had been with an accident, and when they got them 666 days somebody refused and then they kept firing the person. Hey, okay, don't wear the stupid fucking sticker. Okay, whatever, oh, your mind fell off, or whatever. But that was one of them and they sued and they lost. I mean, the employer lost, if I recall correctly. And another one, the person who wouldn't scan. Do biometric scanning something to have to do with the devil? It was some, I don't even remember that one.
Speaker 2:But if the the the devil's going to come through you on a fingerprint scanner as you're clocking in or out at this place, okay, you're cuckoo, but and I think, religious- accommodation yeah, they, they won so yeah, but you make these dumb laws, like you said, for the lowest common denominator, and I don't know why I'm shocked, as jaded and cynical as I am, but to see things like this happen, it's like how, what, why, really?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's very weird. I will say, oh, that's the other thing, because I thought religion was part of that. So, like the protection of religion in the workplace, wasn't that part of the EEOC rollback? No, Okay, that wasn't.
Speaker 2:No yeah, not that I'm aware of that. That wasn't the two webinars I've done and the various email things I've gotten. Nobody's talked about religion in this, but you know, religion has become stronger. It used to be the most de minimis, oh yeah, we can't do that. If it was anything other than eh, we know someone feel like it, you know you could get away with it, but now religion is, and I said we're going to be apolitical, I'm trying to be a religious as well, but now religion. You know people are coming up with these whacked out religions and it doesn't even have to be a religion, it just has be a sincerely held belief. Well, I sincerely, sincerely believe some people are fucked up in the brain and I'm not gonna, I don't need to accommodate their, their situation well, a reasonable accommodation, right.
Speaker 1:So like what's reasonable and I think that's. I mean it's broad, but it's kind of broad for a reason yeah, it is.
Speaker 1:It is like if you're required to come to work on the weekends and then you say, hey, I, you know, I practice a religion. I can't do that. Well, like this job, the requirement of this job is to be here, like you know, like accommodations have to be reasonable to the function of the company. So I think, like that's another thing. I think a lot of people who don't understand HR get their panties in a wad because they say things like DEI, hire. Don't say that that's a weird thing to say. But then they'll say things like I mean, I literally have been consuming so much social media over the past few days and I will literally see people defining DEI and I'm not exaggerating when I say this, this is like a direct quote. People will be like, oh, dei is literally hiring someone who is qualified over someone who is qualified because of the color of their skin. And I'm like where are you fucking learning this? And at the same time I'm like they're learning from social media.
Speaker 1:But that's the thing, and it's like what side of social media are you learning this from? Because it's not in the crevices that I go to like not what I'm learning.
Speaker 1:Your algo is not. Yeah, it's not where my algorithm's going. But at the same time, it's like people don't understand that DEI really, and we could talk about the DEI thing next. Yeah, these illegal DEI practices which, again, are very broadly termed. What does that even effing mean? But people think DEI means color of skin, when DEI is like a broad umbrella of a lot of things. It could be your race, it could be your gender, it could be your sexuality, it could be the fact that you're over 40. It could be the fact that you're a veteran, it can be. I mean like literally everyone checks one of those boxes and it's just one of those things where it's like you don't know it, but you've probably benefited from either DEI, education, dei stuff and people. Again, ignorance is a choice, but like they just don't choose to Google anything other than what they're being fed, so it's incorrect information.
Speaker 2:But at the same time.
Speaker 1:I'm just sitting here like empathy, managing to different personality, like managing to different these are all things that are under that DEI umbrella. So what now? Is situational leadership going to be a legal DEI because it's telling you that you need to manage, you need to change your management style to where the person is? Is that now going to be illegal DEI? It's such a broad term and it's so foolish.
Speaker 2:It is, and there's two sides of this one too. So you have I've said any number of times before you had all these shyster companies and some government agencies got caught up in this, these really bad DEI programs that you know, if you're a white male, you sit in the back of the room and you're not allowed to ask questions or anything. There's been things like that.
Speaker 1:That's not inclusive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and and hell. Look at that guy from the Phillies game, or not? The Phillies, the Eagles game. He's a DEI. You know, all these companies bought into these shysty DEI programs.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. Go back to what you were saying. Did you say he was a DEI professional?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the guy from the Eagles game that we talked about two weeks ago or so. He was a DEI. He worked for a DEI consulting firm. Worked past tense.
Speaker 1:This might be the old-fashioned talking, but thank God for the internet, thank God for the internet. I love my favorite pastime the past few weeks is watching people just get burned for the stupid shit they say on the internet. Because the internet, ladies and gentlemen, is forever.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, things have evolved. I know for a fact the things I was saying in the 80s and 90s would not fly at all today. You know 80s, 90s, everything was gay people and we're not. You know, it didn't matter If you didn't like something, it was gay. I don't want to do that. Oh, that's gay. I'm not going to do that.
Speaker 1:Or on the other side of it, straight, like oh, that's straight, like that was the opposite, and it was like, yeah, I totally get it. Like, oh, that's so gay, oh, that's straight. Like it doesn't age well, and it was slang that was used it.
Speaker 2:We used the r word, the, the dreaded r word. All everybody was, I'll say it retarded. That's retarded. If it wasn't gay, it was retarded.
Speaker 1:But you know, anyways, we're going way off topic, but I will say there's a point to that though, because like, yes, we hear these things, we learn from these things and we don't do those things once we learn them right, yeah, exactly, and it's not like a personal affront for me. For some people it might be, but if someone just like corrects you saying like, hey, that's offensive or hey, you should consider a different word. And then you adjust. And we were talking about how we're doing those extra, those episodes of, like the office rewatches.
Speaker 2:Oh yes.
Speaker 1:And next week we're going to be doing or not next week, but the following week.
Speaker 2:We're recording next week.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're recording the following week. We're recording next week. Yeah, we're recording the following week. We're going to be. Oh yeah, I forget. We'll talk about our schedule afterward. Yeah, that's production, but we're talking about the second episode, which is Diversity Day, and I'm laughing because you know that was aired what? 20 years ago or something. Yeah, and I mean even the stuff in there. I don't think I told you this when we chatted last time, but if you watch it on, if you watch the Office on Comedy Central, they go from the first episode, they skip Diversity Day and go to the third episode. Yes, I noticed that like a weekend or so ago and I was like, did they just skip Diversity Day Because there's?
Speaker 1:some stuff in there that's like not great but at the same time like it's kind of like the archie bunker of it like they're kind of facing things straight on and there's, in the way they were, some value to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in fact, okay, the, the thing that comedy central changed and we're going down another rabbit hole. You know when he's in trouble with Phyllis and the only thing I'm worried about is getting a boner and but they, that scene, that scene is cut out on anyways, we'll get to. We'll get to those episodes later. But the de trying to wrangle the cats in here on the add brains we have. But so the, the executive order, which is unfathomable because you read it, and we're going to get rid of these illegal DEI programs. Okay, and I can understand. Yeah, it's probably going to get rid of the shitey illegal ones that are just flash in a pan and some government agencies got caught up in buying these as well. So that, amen, amen, I'm all for. But the dei is so misunderstood and I shared an article with you from last year. You know I'm a I'm a little bit of a fan boy of mark cuban. I I love what he's trying to do in the, the drug industry and the medical industry as well. I'm not a basketball fan, a professional definitely, and I haven't watched college games in I don't know how long, but I really like what he's doing there. But he put on Twitter or X or whatever you want to call it. Now he was like yeah, di only comes into play and I'm paraphrasing him when I have two equal candidates, then I'm probably going to give the nod to the minority or the protected class person, whatever it is that he said. And it's so funny because the chairman of the EEOC replied to them and said well, actually, mark, that's illegal. You're giving preference based on race, which is illegal. So, and and okay, I'm a fan I've admitted I'm a fan boy, so maybe I'm giving him a pass on this, but I think so many people think that's what DEI is. Let's do this, because, no, you're not doing it. You're making the playing field level so everybody can have that equal shot. And if that equal shot means it's going to an old white guy like me, then that's how the cookie crumbles.
Speaker 2:But the playing field was open for anybody and everybody and it wasn't a rigged game, and that's what you're trying to do with your DEI. And maybe you are trying to focus on hey, we do need to get more fill-in-the-blank, underrepresented group in there. So you do that at your recruiting thing. We're going to advertise in these forums and these websites and things like that that tend to track more fill-in-the-blank demographic that you're looking for and we're going to do more outreach for this type of group that were underrepresented. There's nothing wrong with that. You're reaching out. You'll get more applicants. They're going to have to go to the same rigmarole that everybody else goes through and, as long as the laying field is fair, yeah, you got more applicants of this protected class than you, probably not more than the non-protected classes, but you had more than you would have if you didn't do those outreach programs and things like that.
Speaker 2:So that's really what DEI is really misunderstood with. Getting rid of it I'm not a fan of because, once again, sometimes you don't know or you don't. You know in the back of your head but you don't realize until it's put in your face that, hey, this is wrong. But I'm like, okay, but that's the person you're trying to protect from and if you're a decent organization, you have people in there. That's going to put the brain. A manager's going to say something stupid. Like that manager's going to say, oh, I don't want a woman between 20 and 40 because I don't want a loser to having a baby, I don't want this.
Speaker 1:Or man managers are going to say that and especially they're going to put it in emails too. And then I'm going to be like why.
Speaker 2:I've heard this from a few people. I didn't experience it in my third-party recruiting thing, but I've heard hiring managers will say the most ridiculous stuff to a third-party recruiter because they think it exonerates them. Oh, we're using this agency headhunter or whatever this recruiter to hire us so I can tell them yeah, I don't want a woman between 20 and 40. I want to make sure someone's going to be here for a while. Plus, have you looked at the longevity rates of people? The average person's only staying in a job like less than three years.
Speaker 2:now, I think, is the time, so make the best out of that three years, and if you're doing well yeah, if you're doing well as an employer, maybe they're going to stay for four or five, maybe they'll do more. But anything over over three years is I'm coming up on six at my, my current job. But anything over three years is like oh right, you're winning. You're winning the game right now. Take, take the win and I live. You know, outside of Virginia beach, the world's largest military complex, we have military spouses coming going all the time and around here you're not going to. You say, oh, we're not going to hire a military, you're going to be gone in three years. Why would we hire you? You would be blacklisted every which way to Sunday. But you know, just take it. Hey, I'm going to get the best I can out of this person for the next three years. Give them a good working environment and that's all you have to do well, I'm sorry, I think.
Speaker 1:I think millennials are the ones that discovered the secret that if you leave a company and go to another one, your pay increase. Like your, your pay is gonna jump. So I think that's a thing of like, um, if you stay at a company for a long time. Your potential for income is so incremental. But if you leave you can get that sweet sweet negotiation and you can actually, over the end of time, make more money. So that's not a dei problem or anything. That's just companies needing to promote or pay merit better or whatever.
Speaker 2:So yeah, keep up with the industry. But anyways, where I was going, people don't understand DEI, what it is, what it means. They don't understand affirmative action, what it is and what it means. Dei is basically opening the door and letting people know what some acceptable behaviors are. Is I mean, honestly, in this day and age, people maybe my age and older, when you're having to deal with bathrooms and transgender issues that I I wouldn't have even known what a trans was 20 years ago, that you hear my, my kids are they. They have trans friends and they're right. It's nothing to them, but to me it would be like, oh, you know, at their age I'd be like what the hell is this?
Speaker 1:and I that's just the world.
Speaker 2:I was in.
Speaker 1:I was in the Kansas City Airport and I am just going to give a shout out to them because they have the best gender neutral bathroom. Well, first, it's the only one I've ever experienced, but it was so great it was like. So I don't know if you know this, but women's bathrooms get a little backed up and I don't want to wait on a line if I have to go to the bathroom. Okay, so, kansas City had these gender neutral bathrooms and, honestly, it was like a common area sink, which is fine.
Speaker 1:I don't mind washing my hands next to a man. Let's wash hands together, let's practice hygiene. But like the door, they weren't like traditional stalls, they were like doors. That was like ceiling to floor. It was exceptional. I was in and out so fast and I never felt threatened and I peed, I washed my hands, I got on my flight. My life is no different than it was before. Just, you know, it's really not. It's nothing groundbreaking, and I am just thankful to the Kansas City Airport for allowing me to be able to pee and move on. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Well, okay, you might be a little young for this. I don't know if the show Ally McBeal there was such a hubbub that they had. What was that in the early? Was that early nineties, mid ninetiess?
Speaker 1:it was like it was mid to late 90s, but you're right, they had they had an open restroom thing and people were in uproar.
Speaker 2:I mean I don't, there wasn't facebook back then. I don't know how I know so much of people were up. I just remember people being in uproar and I didn't like. I didn't watch ali mcbeal, I didn't really care for it. I I like Jane Krakowski. She's funny as hell in so many other things, but I didn't watch the show. But I know people were fired up about the bathroom situation in their office and I'm like okay.
Speaker 1:I'm not thinking about anything, man, I just want to go to the bathroom. Let me just go do that. I don't care who's doing it next to me, they might care. I don't. Like I have experienced a situation Like so. People always say DEI is just to like, pander, to like certain groups, and it's like. I have seen it work in the opposite way. Where there was, I might have told the story before. I'm sorry I might be becoming my mother sharing the same stories. If you're new here, congratulations, it's new. I same company as before with the, the president, or the the owner.
Speaker 1:So the head engine, one of the head engineers, he was an older gentleman, like he at the time was in his 70s.
Speaker 1:He loved what he did and he was good at what he did and he he was just there and he was doing a great job and he had a team. He was hiring a new engineer and I remember him looking at the candidates and there was mathematical assessments they had to take as part of the interview process and the female scored lower on those assessments based on, like, just the scores. Like we had a few female candidates, one of which scored lower and basically, like this is the standard, like I know this is a piece of the puzzle, but you know, let's keep that in mind. And I do remember him walking into my office and him saying well, we can like lower the score a little bit because you know, women aren't that strong at math compared to men. To which I said these are the standards we set, these are the standards that we follow for everyone. If she does not meet the standard, she does not meet the standard. So, like I get it, like I do, because that like and see.
Speaker 2:Maybe he thinks he's being a good person, not by saying that, right, and you mentioned he's a seven. Maybe that's a generational thing. It's a generational thing.
Speaker 1:He's being polite.
Speaker 2:He's trying to be accommodating. Maybe he has a hotspot as this woman. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Daisy, he did Honestly, she was a cutie and he was like older and I'm like it could have been, like I'm not saying no, but who knows it could have.
Speaker 2:It could have been. Maybe it wasn't as as wholesome as I was trying to make it out to be as well, but that's that's another thing. And I, you know, I want to know and you were discussing this off-air a bit which got my squirrelly brain going Harassment, because our training is Harassment plus DEI and we have a company that does it for us and it's a good program, but is this going to impact harassment? You know, is it going to be? Oh, you need to expect to. You know, be oogled at or ogled at, whatever the word is. Or, you know, get your ass slapped every once in a while in the office place and things like that. And you know where is this line going to be? Because, you know, is it going to be one of those? What do they call it? The broken window. First, you have this goes oh, nobody cares, you just broke one window. Next, you break another window oh, nobody cares. Next, the building doesn't have any windows because you've broken all the windows, maya. So what's next?
Speaker 1:So my mom used to work in an office environment in the 80s in the 80s and I do remember she was helping with like, with interviews or something for I don't know what position, but in any case, her boss basically said something along the lines of I really like this one candidate, who happened to be a very attractive female, and she was like what was it about it that you liked? And he said I liked the way she walked away from me. And I'm just saying that these are the things that we could be letting slip through the cracks again, if we're doing away with DEI, if we're doing away with the EEOC, if we're doing away with all this stuff, because, again, this is the reality of the world we live in and those guardrails were put in place for a reason yeah.
Speaker 1:I liked the way she walked away from me, or I think he said he liked the view as she walked away from him. I think that's what he said.
Speaker 2:Getting better.
Speaker 1:And I will say that the reason my mom or not the reason, but my mom was driving on her way to the interview. An asshole kind of cut her off as she was, like kind of turning toward the office for the interview and what he did, she slammed her horn and gave the guy the finger and when she walked in and ended up being the hiring manager, oh, to which they had an interview, and then he goes, you know what I like your attitude, like you don't take shit from people, I can tell. And she ended up getting the job.
Speaker 1:But, my mom just like flicked this guy off because he was an asshole on the road.
Speaker 2:Hey, that's awesome. I like that story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so anyway, like that's just the stuff that's on my mind. It just drives me crazy and I think when people say that stuff never happens, they're either I hate like they're part of a privileged group of people who never had to like really worry about that and to say that it doesn't matter and to say that it won't affect you is a privilege, because there are people that this will affect, and I also think about all the DEI professionals who are in HR right now who are now working in a quote unquote illegal field, and how many people are going to lose their jobs over this as well. Like there's a lot of things. And also look at Target. I mean there's just lists every day of companies that are dropping DEI, oh did.
Speaker 1:Target. Target just dropped DEI and I don't know if you heard this, but like Target dropped DEI. So now Minnesota Pride, where Target is headquartered, dropped Target from the Pride sponsorship. They're like we don't need your money, target. And when they did that, because I think Target gave like $50,000 toward the Pride event, they're like you can suck it. And then they ended up raising $75,000 because of that act. And there are companies that do DEI performatively. I now believe Target is one of them, because I do believe Target started their DEI initiative right after George Floyd and they were doing it in a way, and a lot of companies did, a lot of companies did.
Speaker 2:That's when DEI really exploded. Yes, before Floyd, it really was a thing. That's when it exploded because in that brief period of time you had Brianna, you had George Floyd I can't remember Brianna's last name you had a lot of not so good social injustice issues going on at that immediate time. But yeah, but DEI itself is an illegal. It's illegal DEI and which is not being defined so what does that mean? Yeah, it doesn't like again. The million dollar question is is that now?
Speaker 1:going to be talking about, like I mean, I'm thinking about things like, uh, working with neurodivergent people. Like that's dei, we can't talk about that anymore. Is it showing empathy at work? Empathy is a code word for DEI, so we can't do that anymore, like it's just. And now I'm hearing like whispers that there's going to be like a task force in the government that's like, oh, we're going to be paying out people who basically rat their companies out to be like, hey, my company's doing a training and now I get like a $30,000 or some whatever, some fee for basically like a rat line. And I don't know but I don't know how many of you went to school but snitches get stitches. Stop your shit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but yeah it's, it's crazy and, like I said, my stance as of right now, personally and professional let's not get overly excited about it right now, professionally, we had 90 days from whatever the inaction of the order to be compliant with these orders. So let's see exactly how it shakes out and maybe they'll give us more direction on some of these very broad, vague things. Because the holes in these executive orders you can drive a bus through. And if you and I read the same thing and both being I think we're both kind of smart people but we can get different readings of not knowing what to do out of the same thing. If we can't, if we don't know what to do, and the attorneys of my law firm they're saying we're still trying to parse this all together and you know, just, you know, be ready, make plans, start getting ready, but don't take any action quite yet unless you know you're doing something overtly wrong.
Speaker 2:But another thing that went away all these VIRVA audits. Okay, I don't know if I ever mentioned on the podcast like three years ago my company got hit with a V audit, the Vietnam era veterans readjustment Act. Oh gosh, our company is 40 plus percent prior service. Our COO is a retired Admiral. We have so much military. We work on Navy ships. Because we're a civilian contractor working on these Navy ships, we hire a lot of people from the Navy who worked on these ships and we've won I'll toot my own horn here we've won some best for vets and a military friendly. We've won those type of awards and accolades and things like that. And yet we still got a VIRVA audit. That ended up we passed with flying colors, no problems at all. But in attorney's fees it was over $50,000 in attorney's fees to represent us in our VERBA audit, vevra, whatever you want to say audit. And not only was it $50,000 of attorney's fees, it was just the complete obnoxiousness. You know. Here's our 4142. Check us out we're doing. You know there's no way you can say we're discriminating against veterans in this, this thing.
Speaker 2:And they, they wanted to, you know. And they, they overstepped, in my opinion, if they're a verva, they overstepped their boundaries. I thought they wanted to go in our bathrooms, make sure they are handicapped accessible, and they are, you know. You know we have handicap parking, so they want to make sure we have this. And we, you know, we do. You know it. It should have been okay, five minutes. Here's our last 10 years of 4142s. Walk around, look at our bathrooms all day long, look, and we're compliant.
Speaker 2:But no, it was months and months and they would just ask that. I can't remember any of these dumb ass questions. They'd ask and why this and why that? And uh, I'm like I, I don't know why. Oh, I remember one time a veteran who was disabled at one of the accommodations they wanted. They needed a special chair and you know what. They came to me in hr and said oh, I need a different chair to you know, support, my, I said send me a link. That's all I said send me a link. She had it like within a week and it wasn't. Well, let's talk about a reasonable accommodation. Okay, a 500 chair? Oh yeah, I'm going to pay that. I'm going to pay that, I'm going to buy that tomorrow and not, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I will be very happy that these Verva audits, these EEO audits. Well, eeo, if you're not playing the game right, yeah, you need to be audited and you need to be punished. But I think 99% of people are doing the right thing, at least I hope. Maybe I'm being naive, but that 1% that's not needs to be hammered and hammered hard, but the rest of us leave us. Oh, here's the other thing, and I've been on my soapbox. I don't know if I've done it on the podcast, even though we're well over an hour recording. Now we're going to be doing some editing here, but I hate the EO1 report. I hate the 4142.
Speaker 2:We're a good employer, we do what we think, we pay social security taxes. So therefore you have all our employees and their social security numbers. So you know better than I do what their race is, what their disability they may have, their veteran status. You know all that fun stuff more than I do. I will never forget. For EEO purposes, if someone does not fill out the form, the self-identification form, you get to either A make an assumption of what they are or, b they become a white male. Everybody becomes a white male if otherwise. So those are the rules of the EEO and I'll never forget.
Speaker 2:We had a new HRS system at this company and when people did, I forget what they had to do. But we asked them to check their demographic information out to make sure it was accurate, and somebody got very upset that they were listed in there as a white female when they are Native American. I didn't make that assumption that predated me, but somebody made that assumption and I wouldn't have ever known. But they got upset about it and I'm like, okay, well, and I went back and you know, this was in the day, pen and paper was like I said it was a new HRS system. They put the refuse to identify and I'm like, okay, if that's fine, you want to do that. But they got upset that somebody made the assumptions on their behalf. But oh well, that just is something that always stood out to me, how upset they got about that. I'm like it's easy to fix. We can Do a little drop down and choose Native American from the drop down box. Real, quick and easy.
Speaker 1:It's an annual self-identification campaign Like hey, like just a push to be like you know, go in your HRIS and update things like you know your demographics, yeah, like that's all self-identifiable. So you got to. This is just a friendly reminder that you should do it if you're asked. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know I don't get offended.
Speaker 1:I don't get offended.
Speaker 2:I have a crew who can say you're Native American. Well, we're going to fire you tomorrow because we don't allow them here. But I think that also.
Speaker 1:So I think that kind of also speaks to the just like this inner fear that people probably have, that people are probably like wired with from a young age that I mean it's a perspective that I don't understand because I'm a white female, but I can imagine, like somebody who has those fears in them, they might not want to self-identify because they've probably experienced things in their life that kind of makes and this is why DEI and this is why all that stuff is important you feel like they belong and feel like they are not discriminated against and people accept them for who they am. Something very magical happens and it's called retention. So there is a very good business case for DEI, not just like the oh it's a basic human need to be empathetic.
Speaker 1:Like you should probably have some empathy and if you don't, maybe you should see someone, end of the day, like it's a very good business case, like we don't want to be continuously recruiting for roles because people are leaving, because they work in an environment that makes them uncomfortable, that makes them this, that makes them that, like there's solid business cases for this. And the one thing I've learned in HR is you got to talk to people in terms of money, not the touchy, feely pieces, because that's where you might lose some senior leaders. So when you make a business case on how to push something or you have an initiative that you want to propose, tie it back to ROI and money. But yeah, Absolutely.
Speaker 1:DEI is not touchy-feely. It's actually good for the business it is.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. That's the title of our podcast today.
Speaker 1:Suck on that.
Speaker 2:That'll be the second part of the title. One thing you were saying about self-identifying you know I talk to my son is applying to all these internships and he is on the autism spectrum. But when it comes to that side of it he just puts I decline to identify because he doesn't want to lie. But he doesn't want, he doesn't think of himself in that way. You know, he's brilliantly smart. He used to be teased by members of our own family calling him Dr Sheldon Cooper because he is brilliantly smart. But sometimes the social cues are out of his reach. But as he's gotten older he's done a lot better with it. But he asked me he's done a lot better, uh, with it. But he asked me what do I put? I said I said I said go ahead and mark it, you know uh. I said nobody said until it's time to run these reports, nobody looks at it.
Speaker 1:Those reports aren't like that. Demographic information isn't available to the hiring manager. No, exactly back end stuff. The hiring manager isn't looking to see if you have any disabilities, like they don't know that and honestly they're probably not going to know that unless you tell them, especially if it's something invisible like that you know, in our system, our recruiter, the only people who have access to the self-identification information are me and my HR assistant.
Speaker 2:Our recruiter doesn't have access to it. And you know when do we use it? When we're doing our affirmative action and EO plans. That's when we use that information. And so nobody along the hiring process sees that info. Nobody cares. Nobody's asking you. By the way, what is the deal with Warren? What's his? You know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, For me. I want to see if he has any latent disabilities that we don't know about.
Speaker 2:That's not how that works Undiagnosed. Add out the yin-yang.
Speaker 1:Neurodivergency is fun yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, anyways, we've been ranting. I'm going to try and edit this to be under an hour even though it's been well over an hour, but we'll, we'll see. I hope you enjoyed this very long episode, but it's all been a lot of fun. And you know, we know we went down a lot of rabbit holes, which maybe I'll edit some out. But yeah, you know, this is important and we'll probably talk a little bit more about this as more becomes available.
Speaker 2:You know the the jaded part of this is you're throwing all this shit at us without any direction and nobody's knowing. I mean, you know, if this is what you want to do, fine, I'll get over it, I'll live and the world will live and every babe will. Ultimately, the country will be just fine, and however many more years, but everything's going to be. We've survived worse in this country and in the world, so let's not, let's not overreact, but let's just take it with a grain of salt and see what comes. But I'm sure this is going to give us a lot more fodder to to discuss in the in future episodes as things go and then when the lawsuits come out about it. That's going to be a lot of fun too and they're starting.
Speaker 1:So I'm very interested and and not to make a long episode even longer, but I will be watching the, because I think the fbi agents are now filing a lawsuit against. They're filing a lawsuit for in for unjust firing, because as retaliation. So, oh, because they were like you know the january 6th stuff and they were all let go. So now it's like now they're filing a lawsuit, which I think is justifiable. They should fire a lawsuit because that is retaliation. They were just doing their job yeah, I.
Speaker 2:I saw something. I didn't do any. I saw something on it. I saw a headline. I didn't dive into it or look at it. Get that money.
Speaker 1:I don't stand for retaliation, so get that money, grab that bag.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we'll just have so much for the next episode. We could keep going on this, but anyhow, thank you for listening and for if you've made it through this whole episode. We love you. You've been, it's been, I don't know. We've done a couple episodes over an hour in the past, but it's been a long time. I I my target is 30 minutes, but I don't think the last, I don't know the last time we've done a 30 minute episode either. It's been around 40.
Speaker 2:It's an hour now it's an hour now, oh, hour 15 right now, and, like I said, it'll be well, I'll let it. I'll see what I can do in the magic magic of editing tomorrow night. So anyways, as always, I'm warren, I'm cc and we're here helping you survive hr1. What the fuck? Moment at a time? What the fuck? Yeah, exactly what the fuck.
