You Won’t Believe Who’s On Your Payroll

A quiet Thanksgiving plan turns into a high-stakes HR story: 20-plus fake employees on a real payroll, deepfake executives on urgent video calls, and wire transfers that vanish because the faces on the screen weren’t human at all. We pull the thread on ghost workers, AI-powered impersonation, and the ways remote hiring can be gamed, then rebuild a safer, saner system step by step.

We walk through the modern fraud playbook—deepfakes that mimic CFOs, ghost payroll profiles collecting salaries, third parties secretly doing the job, and criminal networks using “employees” to launder money or open backdoors to sensitive data. Then we get tactical. Identity verification needs more than an I‑9 snapshot: add live checks, secure video verification, and consistent FaceTime during onboarding; align with IT for least-privilege access, device compliance, and anomaly detection; and implement dual approvals with known-key phrases for any financial movement. Trust becomes a process, not a vibe.

Hiring still has to feel human. We take aim at clunky ATS flows that drive away great candidates. Keep applications as quick as placing an online order, avoid duplicate data entry, and use clear timelines and text follow-ups to prevent ghosting on both sides. At the same time, weave in light-touch anti-fraud checks and reference pathways that rely on authentic networks rather than easily faked profiles. The result is a pipeline that respects candidates and protects the business.

We close with practical scripts, small cultural habits, and a reminder to teach basic AI literacy at home and at work. When a request feels “off,” it’s okay to slow down and verify through a second channel. Layered verification, clear communication, and smarter access design take the drama out of hiring and keep your holidays—and budgets—intact.

If this conversation helped, follow the show, share it with your team, and leave a quick review so more HR pros can find it. What safeguard will you add to your onboarding this week?

Chapters

• 0:00 Cold Open & Show Kickoff
• 1:05 Hosts Catch Up And Banter
• 3:10 Thanksgiving Plans And Side Dish Debates
• 8:50 Black Friday, PTO, And Workplace Rhythms
• 11:30 HR News Drought And A Strange Lead
• 11:58 The Fake Employee Rabbit Hole
• 14:30 Deepfakes, Ghost Payroll, And Fraud Tactics
• 18:36 Spotting Deepfakes And Real-World Scams
• 22:00 AI Literacy For Families And Seniors
• 25:05 HR Countermeasures And Onboarding Hygiene
• 28:00 Trust, LinkedIn, And Identity Verification
• 31:20 Comparing AI Tools And Privacy Quirks
• 34:20 ATS Evolution And Candidate Experience
• 38:40 Job Market Paradoxes And Ghosting

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:02

Had you actually read the email, you would know that the podcast you are about to listen to could contain explicit language and offensive content. These HR experts' views are not representative of their past, present, or future employers. If you've ever heard, my manager is unfair to me, I need you to reset my HR portal password, or gotta ride up my employee for crying too much.

SPEAKER_01: 0:27

Welcome to our little fame zone. Welcome to Jaded HR.

SPEAKER_04: 0:45

Welcome to Jaded HR, the podcast by two HR professionals who want to help you get through to workday by saying everything you're thinking, but say it out loud. I'm Warren.

SPEAKER_00: 0:55

I'm Cece.

SPEAKER_04: 0:56

Right. Wow. It's only been two weeks, but it feels like a lot longer.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01

Yeah. I feel like a lot has happened.

SPEAKER_04: 1:04

Yeah, uh life has been crazy, and no, it but it's all it's all good. I I do have something I want to share with you, and I you're sitting down, so strap in. I don't want you to fall down, and I want to make sure you don't have any heart conditions or anything that's gonna send you into cardiac arrest or anything like that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:25

Okay, I'm ready.

SPEAKER_04: 1:28

Yesterday evening I found myself I don't know what the right adjective is or adverb, I don't know what you'd say, admiring or fascinated by, or uh maybe even a little bit of respect for Donald Trump yesterday. So he was apparently and I don't have the volume on at work. I d I don't have don't throw anything at me. I I don't have volume on at my work, the TV's in the lobby, but apparently Monday he had a hoarse voice or something like that, and a reporter asked him why he was so hoarse, and he said, I've been yelling at idiots all day long. And I was like, Oh, okay. I just loved I've been yelling at idiots all day long. And so yeah, I I was like, okay, I'll take that. Uh that's I like that. I can I can feel your pain. I don't I don't get to yell at pe idiots. I would like to yell at some people until I became hoarse or something like that, but no, I just I got a uh a kick out of that. It's like okay.

SPEAKER_00: 2:41

I've been yelling at idiots all day.

SPEAKER_04: 2:44

So yeah, that's all hate him. Yeah, it was just funny. I got it, like I said, I got a little kick out of it. And I almost never stop when uh it's it's a political or something. I just don't ever stop. But when I saw Trump yelling at idiots, I'm like, what? I had to actually I had to stop and read the the the script underneath it and stuff. Like, oh well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 3:07

So I have some it's just like a funny situation. Next week is Thanksgiving. I am looking forward to it. It is one of my favorite holidays of the year because I just love to like I don't know, I just love the feeling of just taking moments of gratitude. And I know that sounds cheesy, but I also like I love that. I also love the comfort food. I love my friends, I love my family. It's just it's my favorite holiday. So we're doing it at our house this year. I we are hosting. My mom has kind of given the reins, well, half of the reins to me. She's still doing the turkey, which is fine. Because here's a hot take no one cares about the turkey, it's all about the sides. Absolutely. Turkey and oh go ahead. Oh, and I was gonna say, and uh so today I had uh what is it? An oven repair man come over because the display on my oven is not working. So it's kind of a fun guessing game of I I think I'm on the right temperature and I have thermometers in there. So I'm like, maybe I can just get the display fixed. Apparently, my oven is so old they don't make that piece anymore. And then they basically said they could rebuild the circuit board for the display, and that would cost basically half the amount of a new oven. So guess who just ordered a new oven tonight? Oh it was one of those things where like I immediately okay, so here's my thing. If a repair person is gonna tell you, don't bother, because he did say that because he was just like, if I were you, I would not do this. I trust the repair person, because if they're giving up money or the opportunity to make money, I'm like, I'm just not gonna do it. So I immediately jumped on Lowe's and they had a great oven for 50% off because this is apparently a big appliance holiday.

SPEAKER_04: 5:05

Are you gonna be able to have it installed by by Thanksgiving?

SPEAKER_00: 5:09

No, so we're still gonna play the guessing game on Thanksgiving. I don't think it's gonna get installed until like the it's coming in the day before Thanksgiving, so they probably aren't gonna be able to even schedule an installation until then. So we're still gonna play kind of the guessing game. The bottom oven works fine. That half of the display I can see, and the other half, all I know is that I when I turn it on, it goes automatically to 350, and then every beep is a 10 degree or a five-degree increment. Okay. So you have to count the beeps.

SPEAKER_04: 5:44

Kevin, be quiet.

SPEAKER_00: 5:45

I'm counting beeps.

SPEAKER_04: 5:48

Oh, well.

SPEAKER_00: 5:50

But I'm excited. I'm I'm excited.

SPEAKER_04: 5:53

Yeah, I I love I do love Thanksgiving. I do I like the overindulgence in food. I am responsible for the turkey. And Dawn does like I I I'm trying to get her to tone it down, the quantity of sides, but she's got a billion. It's actually tomorrow is our keep going, Dawn.

SPEAKER_00: 6:13

More sides.

SPEAKER_04: 6:14

Yeah. Our tomorrow's my works Friendsgiving we're doing. So we're we we decided to do that tomorrow because we have some people leaving town on Thursday, so on a on work. So we wanted to get as many participants as we could in. So yeah, we're having Friendsgiving tomorrow at work, which means I gotta remember not to pack a lunch. But yeah, so I I follow the Alton Brown brining recipe. I brine it for like three days and and then I smoke it and on my smoker. And turkey is not it's the star, but it's the sides are what do it. But I it makes one damn good turkey, I have to say. And it's only gonna be my wife and I, my son will be coming home, and my in-laws will be here. So we're gonna have enough food for 300 people. And we all we host it, we prefer to do the cooking ourselves. We uh we prefer to do everything, and we prefer to be at our house except for the only thing is when you go to someone else's house, you can leave. When someone else comes to your house, they linger.

SPEAKER_00: 7:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's so much truth to that. Like you uh introverts prefer going because we can leave when we want to leave.

SPEAKER_04: 7:26

Yes, uh yes, and because uh like I said, it's only gonna be the five of us, and it's gonna be yeah, it's gonna be interesting, and we're looking forward. We are looking forward to it. I it is one of my favorite holidays, but uh, I just wish uh it would make a federal holiday out of Black Friday too, because holidays that are not on uh Mondays or Fridays are the worst because like yeah, this past week I unexpectedly used too much PTO, and I've been trying to hoard it forever, and I'm just uh between that and spending a week in the hospital this year earlier this year and all that other stuff. I didn't get to use all the PTO for things I wanted to do, and I want to hoard it, but it's just I'm and so I'm not taking off Black Friday, I'm not taking off the day after Christmas, I'm not taking off the day after New Year's, I'm just I'll be there, I'll probably be there by myself at work those days because there's it's gonna be a a ghost town there, so it's it's interesting. But yeah, it is it is my it is one of my favorite holidays.

SPEAKER_00: 8:33

Yeah. I I will get on my soapbox for a second only because my my manager asked me today, she's like, Do you partake in Black Friday? And I was like, No, I don't. I don't. I stopped partaking in Black Black Friday when Black Friday started at like I don't know, five o'clock on Thursday, like for like stuff. And I was just like, just give us a day, man. Just give us a day where we're not sold at and give people the opportunity to just be home. Like, we don't have to do this. So anyway, that's my now I will do Cyber Monday. Okay, but Black Friday, I'm like, screw it. I need one day of peace in my life.

SPEAKER_04: 9:13

Yeah, we we're not do we don't go to stores on Black Friday. I haven't done that in years, but I'll be I've set up all sorts of alerts to uh for prices of things I want, of things I want, and that'll be really cool. But I I was gonna ask going back to Thanksgiving, what is your favorite side? What is the the one thing that you you have to have?

SPEAKER_00: 9:35

I have to have my mom's sausage stuffing. Oh I have to have green bean casserole and the crappy green bean casserole. Like I like it with the condensed soup. Okay, I don't want any bougie, like barefoot contessa, like special. No, I want out of the can green bean casserole.

SPEAKER_04: 9:58

Okay, okay. I I'm with you on a stuffing. Dawn makes this, it started off many years ago as Paula Dean's stuffing recipe, but we've mutated it over the years, so it's you know, we we've changed it, but it is still it, it's just it's it's crack. I yeah, you I can just eat that and be completely happy. I'm not a green bean casserole person. I'm not I'm not a fan of that. What other I'm just trying to think of the other side are really, really oh, brown sugar stewed carrots. I love doing that. Yeah, that's that's probably my other favorite. But Dawn does mat like I said, we're gonna have too many sides for five people. We're gonna have mac and cheese, and Dawn's homemade mac and cheese is it's insane. It's incredible. Sweet potato casserole. I mean, it's just gonna be it's we're gonna be eating a ton. I'm trying to get let's cut the portions down, do half portions of everything because even my son isn't gonna take all this stuff back to school, and if he does, it'll be you it'll be wasted just the same. It'll just make a six-hour trip in the car to be wasted versus stay in our own refrigerator to throw it out a few days later. So yeah. But stuffing is is my my thing. Okay, so I've been searching HR world, you've been pretty boring lately.

SPEAKER_00: 11:21

So boring.

SPEAKER_04: 11:22

What what's going on? I I haven't been able to find any good news stories, or I haven't been really on social media too much to see what's out there and y'all are talking about, but wow, it's been it's been pretty boring.

SPEAKER_00: 11:37

Yeah. Well, I went down a really weird rabbit hole. So my friend was talking to me about her company, and her company is going through an interesting situation, and this is one of those situations where she's not supposed to know about it, but she does. And since I don't work there, she wants to gab to me. So, anyway, basically they identified about 20, 25 fake employees on their payroll. So they're a global con they're a global company. There are a lot of people who work remotely. I would say the majority work remotely. And now I guess the FBI is involved and all this kind of stuff, and everything is like kept under wraps. So obviously, I'm not gonna you know name-drop who they are, but it's insane because I was like, what is like a fake employee and what do they do? So I went down a crazy rabbit hole and I wanted to share my hyperfixation with all of you.

SPEAKER_04: 12:36

Awesome. I'm I'm really interested in this topic. It it's you know, it has I didn't realize how prevalent the issue was, and I'll I'll let you do you do your thing, but my company is investigated. Uh, you know, may we have to do things to make sure we're not hiring fake employees. And we did a case study, our the our security officer sent out a case study on this, and I thought it was really, really interesting. So what do you have?

SPEAKER_00: 13:04

So basically the it's been a lot easier for individuals to sneak into companies and become on their payroll without them really having to give a real identity and then also using like deep fakes and also, you know, just highly uh relying on filters and stuff like that, so they can actually move through the interview process and move through the onboarding process pretty like pretty stealthily. And that's kind of the scary thing, just because we are more of a remote world right now, I'm you know thinking a lot of the ways that we onboard employees has been you know different. It's not like you're seeing these people in person for new higher orientation on Mondays.

SPEAKER_04: 13:53

It it's really interesting. This is there's and do you know if if these fake employees are they domestic, are they international? Are they you know bad players? Or do you know anything about oh yes, all of the above.

SPEAKER_00: 14:08

They're kind of all over the place. A lot of so so first of all, I guess a lot of it is kind of nefarious. So a lot of the times they're just getting access and getting an initial hire to get, you know, access to internal systems and data. Because once, you know, once you're in the system, once you're an employee, you can like go into the network, you can get access to internal documents, or you can either either like even extract cons customer data, especially if it's like competing. So, yeah, so there's a lot of that. There's also collecting payroll for people who don't exist. So these are known as ghost employees. It's a scam, but AI basically lets one person to pretend to be multiple employees across multiple companies, and they're just kind of collecting paychecks for like zero work. And they can like get away with this in if you think of like like call center, like remote call center things or or stuff like that. Like they're just they're just collecting paychecks from companies with doing like no work.

SPEAKER_04: 15:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 15:14

Then we have people who are like ac they're like an access point for a larger criminal organization. So like a fake employee can go in and they can be used to do things like launder money or set up fake vendor relationships or approve fraudulent invoices. So yeah, so there's definitely that kind of stuff where they could just be funneling money into their own accounts. And then finally, or no, and then there's also the impersonating internal leaders. So you'll get like deep fake audio or deep fake video calls, and like it is like your CFO or like a VP who's asking you to go buy those gift cards, except now their voice, you hear their voice and it sounds just like them, or you're you took a call and they're deepfaking it and it looks like them and it sounds like them, so it must be them, you know. So there's that, and then there's also people who pass off work to other people and outsourcing illegally. Yes, which I am oddly fascinated with. So so yeah, so someone will take the job, they will take the salary, but they will pay someone else like a fraction of it to actually do the work while they sit back and do nothing. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 16:31

I've I've heard of multiple the last one you covered, the the farming it out. I've I heard about that uh a few times before, and I'm just like, you know, first it it really takes some audacity to do those things. Audacity. The audacity to do those things. I'm just I I would be too afraid of getting caught. I'm a wimpy wimp when it comes to things like that. I don't want want to be caught and busted for something like that, but these people, they just don't care. And what you said about plants, I was just trying to find an article that we had to watch and do. But North Korea hires these people, real quote unquote, real jobs. They're well, they are real jobs for this person, and they their job, and they do get paid for this, it's not a well, it is a scam on a certain degree, they tell them to go and buy 50 of these type of computers and then set them up in a certain way and get them online so they can download, and then they let the North Koreans remote in from and the lady that they were interviewing, she didn't think she was doing anything wrong when she got busted. She was in Arizona or something, and she basically turned her house into a DYI like server farm for these people, and they were just the North Koreans were remoting in and working and you know, trying to get access to information that way through clients, and and the they were using her addresses and addresses that she would set up for them, and she thought she didn't think she was doing anything. I'm like, okay, let's if you can build because they also told her not to hire outsource any of this. Uh they'll go and walk her through step by step how to set up all these networks and things like that. If you're smart enough to do that, aren't you smart enough to think this doesn't pass the smell test? You know, they're paying me a lot of money to set these computers up so people can remote in and work from my house on my IP address. And the deep fake, the deep faking is incredible. I I do encourage everybody to go to Good Morning HR and on their website, Mike Coffey talks about deepfakes, and he does a deep fake of himself, and it is incredible, y'all. It I I wouldn't have known that that was a deep fake. And it was it was it was really interesting, and he's done multiple podcasts on Good MorningHR about people doing these deep fakes and and things like that. I'm just like, wow. But I've also seen information on how to I saw an article I was also trying to pull up after you were talking about how to spot deep fakes. And yeah, you're looking for the little paw awkward pauses and things like that, but it's almost real time. They can put superimpose someone else's face in front of me and and then make my mouth move to whatever it has me saying, but I'm there in person. They say, they say, raise your right hand. I can raise my right hand. Yeah, because that's one of the things they apparently tell people to do in if they start suspecting deep fakes, do a gesture or something like that. That might be that might be difficult for AI to to pick up on quickly.

SPEAKER_00: 19:42

Maybe put your hand in front of your face.

SPEAKER_04: 19:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 19:44

I don't know.

SPEAKER_04: 19:45

I don't know. It's that is such a weird and interesting situation. And I just think Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_00: 19:53

But so they were so they mentioned that thing about North Korea that you were mentioning that was on here, and then they were also talking about a multimillion dollar deep fake CFO scam with an engineering firm called AROP, ARUP. I probably said that wrong. But basically, an employee received a video call with the CFO, who they thought was the CFO, and several other senior leaders, but all of them were deepfakes, and they were instructed to transfer money urgently in several accounts, and it was a total loss of 25 million US dollars. But I think what you said before was like there needs to be some kind of AI literacy that needs to be somewhat taught. I mean, this is like such a stupid example, but my you know, my parents, they they watch Bean, they watch the baby, and when they're like, I went over today and they're like, Oh, there's a new Miss Rachel video. And I was like, listen, I know I celebrate her entire catalog. I know everything. So I've like, I didn't know Miss Rachel dropped a new video. And they're like, yeah, and I started, and they're like, it has to do with like AI babies, and I'm like, what? And it was literally just someone taking a Miss Rachel video, splicing it, and putting like AI, like very realistic AI images of toddlers like pronouncing words. But I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. First of all, I had to give my parents a lesson on like this is how you identify the creator. Like you can see, this is not the verified creator on YouTube, but also just I was I immediately was like, do not let her watch this video. I think it's so scary for like we people who are literate in person-to-person contact, like we even have trouble deciphering deep fakes sometimes. So if you're like introducing it to babies, I'm not listening I don't know what I'm talking about. This is just like a gut thing. But if you're introducing it to like toddlers at such a young age, like how are they gonna know the difference? If they're just gonna they're not gonna know it's real, they're not gonna know it's fake. I don't know. It's weird, it creeps me out.

SPEAKER_04: 22:03

Well, in terms of deep fakes, I I know someone he's a senior and he's been scammed a couple times, and yet he keeps falling for these deep fakes. The the crown prince of Dubai is gonna be sending him, he just needed to pay the shipping for this and sent him a few hundred dollars to cover the shipping of this very valuable package he needs to watch for him. And he sent him the bill of lading, and he's all excited, and things like that. This person also thinks that Elon Musk calls him and asks him for advice, and he says he's done FaceTimes with him, and it's really him and things like that. Angelina Jolie has also been FaceTiming him. Oh gosh. Oh, and we're just like at I think at some point there should be a license to get on the internet or have a smartphone, and you have to take a test, you know, on certain things. Like my my mother, she called me in a panic uh this was a few months ago. I just got this text that my Apple account, my Apple bank account's been compromised, and what does that mean? And all this. I'm like, Mom, you don't have an Apple bank account.

SPEAKER_00: 23:15

You don't have it.

SPEAKER_04: 23:16

You're fine. And she goes, Well, how do they know I have an iPhone? I said, They're playing the numbers. Half the world has Apple iPhones, and a portion of those people have an Apple banking account. I said, This is not something you need to worry about. And I've been working hard with my mother. Okay, if the phone rings and you don't recognize the number, let it go to voicemail. And she's like, Well, what if it's one of my doctors? They'll leave a message and you call them back. Leave a message and or program all your doctors into your contact so you will know it's them. And all these texts, if it's not somebody you know, don't reply, just hit delete and go on with your day. I'm just so worried that one day somebody's gonna get her good enough because uh she's had to call the Social Security Administration has called her a few times, and I'm like, oh no, no, no, no, no, just they don't call you. They they do not call you. Don't give the them your information. If the social security number administration is calling you, they don't need your social security number and things like that. That's there there needs to be there needs to be a license for people, and I'm not talking about just old people like I've been talking about right now, but there's there's a lot of naive people out there who just I I just don't understand it. And I I don't know. It's yeah, AI is crazy.

SPEAKER_00: 24:31

So I was thinking like, what are some ways that you know, as working in HR that you can like maybe combat some of this craziness? So I was thinking, you know, we're I think we're pretty good on identity verifications, but there probably needs to be like an extra step in that because yeah, we do like I9s and stuff, but just like it is they now you can do it remotely.

SPEAKER_04: 24:53

Here's my I9 or here's my passport, and you know so you have to be like a little more diligent about that.

SPEAKER_00: 25:00

Yeah. And I don't know how.

SPEAKER_04: 25:02

You know, if somebody wants to try hard enough to fool you and to they can. You know, there's there's if they want to try hard enough and work hard enough, they can they can do it. Uh you you gotta assume there's a certain amount of risk, but something that spidey sense in the back of your mind has to be telling you, hmm, this isn't something doesn't seem right. I you know, I I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 25:30

So there is like a there is like a thing, and I think another thing to combat it was you know w when you're doing your remote onboarding, being very much more like purposeful about it and making sure like you have a lot of FaceTime with the individual. Collaborate with your IT team, like talk with them, talk with your security team, get that under control like make that a partnership. But also, this is interesting, it says trust in your talent pipelines. So I think it might be one of those situations where you're most likely going to be hiring people who could at least be referred by like three other people deep that they know that person.

SPEAKER_04: 26:07

And now somebody was talking to me about it, wasn't about fake employees, it was about I guess more verification, but they were talking about I think our our company that we we go and look at everybody's LinkedIn profiles. I said, if I can fake a put a fake resume together, I can put a fake LinkedIn profile, it just takes an email address, and that's it. I can have a LinkedIn profile that says anything I want. I was like, that's not the that's not the best idea. And let me tell you, I what I I I think I've said it before, as soon as my son graduates and gets a real job, I'm off LinkedIn, I'm done. I I don't I can't. LinkedIn is just becoming so infuriating to me. I I can't do it anymore.

SPEAKER_00: 26:51

It's a very interesting place. I follow a Reddit board called LinkedIn Lunatics. Yes, I follow that one too. It is so good.

SPEAKER_04: 27:02

Yeah, LinkedIn Lunatics. I haven't been on Reddit in a quite a while, but yeah, I I follow that one. I I follow a few threads on Reddit for for that. But well, I am you know talk about being in school. I'm I'm doing a research paper on AI now, and I I have to compare and compass different AI platforms. So I'm using Gemini, Perplexity, and Chat GPT. And I'm I'm trying to do research on all of them. Let me tell you, uh I I've I started with Gemini and I use Gemini the most, and I've been using it for years. I've only been using ChatGPT and ChatBBGPT since the beginning of the semester, really, and then perplexity. I only started using for this specific research paper. But you know how I showed you ChatGPT reference Jd HR when I was asking something. Well, oh yeah, I'm doing my research paper and it's trying to connect, and I did it as a separate project in Chat GPT, and it's trying to it's referencing J Did HR. So I'm like, and I've got to turn my link into my professor, my ChatGPT link, and I have to share that link with him. I'm like, uh but I actually used it as part of my I turned it into part of my paper. I was like, this is really what if I it was something embarrassing? What if I'm I don't know, have some deviant fetish or something like that I'm looking on AI for or something like that that I'd be embarrassed, and I'm sitting here doing this research paper and it's trying to put it up to clown midget porn or something like that, and I'm just I don't know, but it's I I I was but I try I I I took my frustration, I made it part of my my paper. I was like, you know, I there's nothing to hide with jaded HR or anything like that. But I was just like, this is if I want research that I'm doing for a school paper, I don't want it my other searches bleeding into it. But I went to did the exact same queries in all three. Uh perplexity I've never used before, so it doesn't have any history of mine. But Gemini, which I've used for years in show prep, it it didn't reference J D HR at all. I thought that was really interesting, the the security of Chat GBT versus the other two ones that that I used. And uh it was it was it was eye-opening, but I'm I'm having I'm not having fun. I'm I'm surviving this this paper, but my other project is a about the gosh, what is the title of my project? Yeah, that's how bad it's been. Applicant tracking systems through the years, the past technology, present technology, and where it's heading in the future. So talking about resume parsing and like when I first started recruiting, the we had I don't I wish I'd remembered the name of it as I tried thinking of it, but I couldn't. We we had an applicant tracking system, but basically was a contact management database. So we'd wrote load a resume up that was either in Word or Word Perfect. It did not like PDFs, if you know what word perfect is, but you'd load it in that way and then. As a recruiter, we would have to manually convert it to text and load it again because that's what the the key the searching could only do off of text. A text file, it couldn't read the other files. And then as a recruiter, we'd have to go in and put John Doe's name, address, email, phone number, and all that manually in there was no parsing at that time. Yeah, so I walk it from that point to where we are today with AI and what's coming down the pipeline next for AI. But it's yeah, it's really interesting to think of all the changes I've seen over my career just in terms of recruiting and applicant tracking systems and and things like that.

SPEAKER_00: 30:39

I hate to say it. I I heard this once and I believe it in my heart to be true that if it takes someone like if it takes someone longer to apply for your job than it is to order something on Amazon, like you've lost them. Yeah, you have absolutely that's how fast it should be because that's how it shouldn't, and I'm sorry, it shouldn't be more than like upload your freaking resume. Like I have applied for roles where it was like upload your red resume. Okay, now everything in your resume, now you're gonna write it out. Okay, and now you have to do that.

SPEAKER_04: 31:20

In my presentation about that, about the applicant experience and saying, hey, it was I forget who it is. Oh, it's it's Adam Driver. I loaded my resume. Now I have to enter all the I I put that, I forget exactly what it says, but it's uh a hundred variants of that, but I put that in my my presentation about you know why why even do parsing if it's not gonna do anything. And and I've been really helping my son apply for jobs the past two years, it's been really interesting. The the wide variety you have some that seem like they're straight out of the 1990s, and then you have some that are like perfectly AI, great experiences and real quick and easy uh applies. And I I just think exactly what you're thinking. If if I'm in demand and I'm looking for a job, if I have to if I'm getting bored with your process or frustrated, no, I'm moving on.

SPEAKER_00: 32:14

Oh yeah. You know, it's funny because like we were talking about those bot things, like oh, like the the fake employees. But I also like we're talking about this and applicant tracking and all this kind of stuff, and I also heard that sometimes fake jobs will just appear online and like some of it will be like one of the things on the application will be, oh, like solve for this, like what would be your suggestion for solving for this issue? And like it's just them farming for information. Like, there's no job, it's just them, like as part of the like just to prove how your brain works, like answer these questions, and they're all kind of getting at some kind of solution that they're farming for.

SPEAKER_04: 33:00

Yeah. At at a previous employer I I worked at, we got contacted by somebody. Uh, they were very angry about a job application they were completing for us because it was asking all these questions. I'm like, we we somebody had stolen the logo and the template and uh basically cloned our job somewhere else, and it was asking illegal questions and it was asking stupid things. And I was like, whoa, you're not on our website. This is not, and I I I got on the I was on the phone with them and I was like, I don't know where you are, send me your link, I'll send you our link because this is you're not on our our website. And the scammers are out there, and it's it's incredible. And the the getting people to apply to these jobs, and you see it on LinkedIn all the time. I got taken. Actually, there was a an HR influencer I saw one of their posts recently that they got taken by a a job scam that oh you send me X amount of money and we'll help and you'll get this, that, and the other thing, and they didn't get it and it got ripped off. It's the job markets it's it's yeah okay, switching gears, the job market. I have so many different opinions of how the job market is. I if I could find ten engineers to do what we need them to do, I'd hire them tomorrow. And we're going through our applicants like this. We're getting them or snap, snap, snap, we're we're looking at them all and responding to them as quick as we can. But we don't get as many applicants as we used to. And I'm like, our jobs are at all the key places online to to look for them, and we're just not getting the response and the traffic that we used to do. But I hear all these other people, I've applied to 30 jobs and 500 jobs, and I haven't got even a phone call. Like, what are you applying to?

SPEAKER_00: 34:50

Is it pretty niche?

SPEAKER_04: 34:51

Like you're it is it is niche. Our our positions are very niche, and and we realize it, but a lot of times we we get more quantity of resumes just yeah, you know, people because you can click here to apply and you're applied. And it that's the downside to the we were talking about if it takes you longer to buy something on Amazon. I love that analogy. I'm gonna use that than to uh apply for a job. You're doing it wrong. And we have the easy apply button. You click here, upload your resume. If they want to it it gives them the option to continue, but they don't have to after that. And it it's it works really, really well. And we we do everything we can to make it as painless as possible for a candidate to apply without you know breaking their neck or getting bored with us or anything like that. Is it's you've got to get people in. And if I hear, oh, I can't find anybody. I hear both sides, I can't find anybody, or I can't find a job. I'm like, they where is it? Where's the reality?

SPEAKER_00: 35:52

I honestly don't know. I've been so out of recruiting and out of that area for so long that I actually I have no idea of what's going on with the job market.

SPEAKER_04: 36:02

Yeah, it it's it's I I don't know what to think of it. I get all these mixed mixed feelings and feedback, mixed reviews and things like that.

SPEAKER_00: 36:10

So Yeah, because I have heard like people I I know of people who've been looking for the past like six months. Yeah. But but they're more I mean, it's very it's a very skewed sample there because they're all like HR people in like director level roles. But you know I don't know. I don't have the answer.

SPEAKER_04: 36:34

Yeah, I I I don't either. I'm I'd I wish we could figure it out as I just you you go on LinkedIn, all these people I applied to 300 jobs and nobody's called me back. Well I you know, and then I don't know, it's on the the ghosting and the ghosting oh we had uh okay this past week we had somebody we made an offer, we made a verbal offer. They they said they were interested. We sent out the written offer, followed up with phone calls, texts, emails, never heard back from them, and then we he said, Oh, I haven't heard back from you. And I was like, No, and then m we were we verified the email address and phone numbers and everything. Oh yeah, that's me. And like we've been texting, calling, emailing you. And he said, Oh, okay, well I'll uh so we sent it again, and uh and then he just disappeared again. I'm like, okay, you're just you're you're not winning here. So that offer got rescinded. Like, yeah, you're you're playing a game of some sort. I don't know what the game is you're playing, but it it's a bad game. We're not we're not playing games, we don't have time for your crap.

SPEAKER_00: 37:43

So it sounds like a horrible game.

SPEAKER_04: 37:45

Yeah, I'm like, yeah, but what what I don't know what the end game is for for this person. Like, I we don't have time for this. Move on next.

SPEAKER_00: 37:53

So maybe it was a fake person, and you were contacting the real person, and the real person didn't know what was going on.

SPEAKER_04: 38:04

Okay. Side tra sidebar from that made me think my my assistant today got a phone call, and this is my least favorite thing remote. Someone from this number called me. And they called her direct line. Somebody from my this number called me a minute ago. She goes, No, I I didn't call you. I'm sorry, I don't know what you're talking about. Well, what what are you why are you calling me? And she's like, I ended all attitude with with her, and then she's well just just don't call at me anymore. Like, I didn't call you in the first place. And I I was like, What's going on? And she she was a little upset about it. I'm like, gosh, people are just being difficult. And but if you call me and the first words out of your mouth was somebody called me from this number, I'm like, I don't know. I'll just say, I'm sorry, I don't know what you're talking about. Bye. I'm not I'm not entertaining that that phone call, even if I did call you. That and that is a total Gen Z thing as that happened to me at the water park all the time. Oh yeah, somebody called me from this number.

SPEAKER_00: 39:01

Well, yeah, no, not Hi, my name is so and so. I'm returning a phone call.

SPEAKER_04: 39:06

Yeah, uh yeah, it's just it's not that hard. No, it's not that hard. And or if it if I didn't leave you a voicemail or something, I don't want you to call me back. Other kids don't like my daughter, her voicemail is just turned off and I oh but text now texting. I if I don't get someone, if I'm trying to call someone, I don't get them, as soon as I hang up, I send a text. Hey, Warren just tried to call you, call me back. And so they know who it was and stuff like that. And that's at work or at home.

SPEAKER_00: 39:35

Oh, it's the best thing. I worked at a I I worked for a company and we had like SMS text that was like folded in as an extension into our Outlook. So we could just like as just like we're typing an email, just send text messages out to people, and it was fantastic way to get in contact with people.

SPEAKER_04: 39:53

I love it. That we do, we have that as well. I love sending texts and because people are quicker to respond, actually. I I find. Or maybe they just couldn't answer the phone where they were. If you said, hey, most of the time conversation, I like short conversations. I like, hey, I need you to fill out this, you know, go online and fill out this form, or I need you to do this, or respond to this email. That's all I need. That's all by thanks. Quick and easy. Well, let's see. Well, we've rambled on for quite a while here. Yeah, yeah. I I will come to the table in two weeks after Thanksgiving. What is that will be oh two weeks from now is not Thanksgiving.

SPEAKER_03: 40:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 40:35

So it'll be December. Wow, our next episode will be in December.

SPEAKER_00: 40:38

Crazy.

SPEAKER_04: 40:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:41

This year flew by.

SPEAKER_04: 40:42

It did.

SPEAKER_00: 40:43

Like this year, I'm like, this is the first time in my life where I feel like I feel like this year lasted for six months.

SPEAKER_04: 40:51

It no, it it time is flying. I I don't even know where things have gone, where things have been, or anything like that. But yeah, we'll we'll do we'll have a you know, this one will come out the Thursday before Thanksgiving. We'll have one the Thursday after, and I think we might take the the re rest of the year off after that. So that's that's sort of my plan, just to chill. They like like the idea of chilling, come back fresh with the with the new year. But do want to get our thank yous out. I usually try to get it, I've been trying to get it out earlier, but I've totally blanked. But Andrew Culpa, the voice artist, the intro song is Double the Double by the underscore orchestra. And then we have our Patreon supporters, Hallie, the original Jaded HR rock star, Mike and Bill. So thank you all very much. And you know, it is the end of the year. Give us a review, go online, your favorite podcast player, Apple, whatever. I haven't checked those in forever.

SPEAKER_00: 41:42

Give us an end of the year performance review.

SPEAKER_04: 41:44

Give us an e pal. You can reach us on social media that I have not been on in months, but reach out to us, and that'll be one of my resolutions. It's been my resolution for the past um teen years to be better on social media. And I'm not.

SPEAKER_00: 41:59

Yeah, I used to be so good, and now I'm so bad. We'll get on it, we'll fix it.

SPEAKER_04: 42:06

We'll work on that one. It's a jerk. But we will see we will see you in two weeks. So as always, I'm Warren.

SPEAKER_00: 42:12

I'm Stacey.

SPEAKER_04: 42:13

And we're here helping you survive HR1 what the fuck moment in the time.

SPEAKER_00: 42:18

Bye!